TECHS - To Trade or not to Trade with the AI?

[Mauserspray]

Hi all,

I'm really wondering if I should trade techs with the AI and how much I should trade with them. I played Civ3 a lot, but I'm new to Civ4, being barely able to beat it at Prince level. Maybe I am struggling so much because I barely ever trade techs.

I usually only trade techs when I am desperate or I am waaay ahead and want something specific from them. I've read about others' strategy and they seem to trade with the AI as much as possible.

Under what circumstances should I trade with the AI? When should I not? Call me paranoid but I am always hording my advances, unwilling to give them to the AI for fear of him getting ahead of me or beating me to a wonder etc.

Thanks for the input,

M

 

[lastchance]

Trade tech = good thing, because you benefit yourself and one other player at the expense of everyone else in the game. I trade as much as possible, except if there's some wonder I need to build, or it is a key military tech that will allow them to match me on the battlefield.

 

[jedimogg]

i like to trade techs in a few different situations

1. i really need a certain improvement or building and i don't have the tech yet.

2. when civs that are hostile towards me are waring with civs that are friendly. improving the friendly civs army through trading makes it more likely they will disable a possible threat for me

3. when civs are behind me in the tech race and aren't near me on the map. even with a trade they pose little threat of catching up to me in the tech race or being a military threat.

4. when i need money to keep my research level high. if i'm running a deficit and my treasury gets low, i will trade a tech for a lesser tech and gold to keep refill the coffers.

that's all i can think of right now.

 

[Zanmato]

I won't trade with the AI:
1. If I want to keep a wonder, national or world away from them for a time.
2. I never trade a military tech unless the threat they pose is feeble.
3. Won't trade a tech with a friendly civ are also friendly with another civ who are annoyed or at war with me. Like trading Guilds with a civ only for that civ to trade to Isabella giving her UU for next to nothing and then those units to start rampaging all over my cities. Can also be applied to point 2.
4. Any tech that enables them to research a tech that gives another tech free or a free GP.

Once you trade a tech with a civ, assume that all other other civs that civ is in contact with will have it too in the next few turns if they haven't already which is unlikely since the AI trades techs between each other all the time and maybe for alot less than you traded for it. Use the beaker count as a guide to it's value.

 

[Kilt]

Well, I recently did a scenario twice.
The first time I didn't tech trade and basically tried to ignore the AI.
The second time I did tech trade and even tributed techs to the aggressive AI's.

However, whenever AI_1 wanted Tech_A, I would trade it to them for Tech_B. I would then find AI_2 or AI_3 that also wanted Tech_A and trade it to them for whatever I could get Tech_C or Tech_D.
As someone explained in a previous post you are doubling or tripling your tech value. 2 or 3 techs for 1 tech. Plus, you improve relations with the AI's.

I believe the only exceptions (as previously stated) is that you might not want to trade military techs with aggressive AI's or AI's that might be leading you in points (or technology).

What I noticed from my test.
In the first scenario where I didn't trade techs, I fell behind in technology around riflemen area (or slightly before that). This is keeping research at 80-90% and having very well placed efficient cities.
In the second scenario where I traded techs, I didn't fall behind the tech leaders until around mech infantry, however, I did get flight before anyone and I also had a significant navy (destroyers) while others were still using sail power or just didn't have any boats in the water. I was behind in some of the religious/political ones.

In both scenarios I had a pretty good lead 100 or 200 points in the early game when I met with other AI's, so I would say there were fairly even games. The results were slightly biased because I had prior knowledge of where resources were in the second game, however, I feel because of this knowledge and early expansion, my city placement in the second game was not as efficient as the first game (I was trying to place cities to allow access to key resources or block the AI from these resources, whereas in the first game, I was placing cities in strategic growth/wealth/defensive areas).

My verdict, Tech Trading is the way to go. Just be clever in the way that you trade them and don't trade them to your tech superiors. And use common sense, don't put yourself in a Wonder race that you might not want to lose.

Kilt

 

[LeSphinx]

I usualy use the tech trading purpose.
Some tech I trade a long time after having discovered in order to use the advantage associate.
For exemple, I never trade Drama beacause it leads to Music which gave a free Great artist if your are the first one to discover it.
Somme tech I do not trade are nationalism (because Wonder Taj Mahal).

LeSphinx

 

[kb2tvl]

I am currently playing on Noble. I should be playing on a higher level. Anyway, I research the food producing techs, metal casting and alphabet.

At that point, I trade all techs except metal casting and alphabet. My score jumps ALOT. Remember part of winning the game is score and tech plays a big part of that.

Latter on, the benefits of trading diminish but trading off a certain tech for a reduced price has its benefits also. You can trade your tech which costs 500 for a tech that costs 400 but do that trade with civs with the lowest score. This prevents the slow techers from falling too far behind. Remember that total tech recieved has to exceed the traded tech's value.

 

[Zombie69]

Think about it this way : whenever 2 players make a trade, both get something for free, while everyone else just falls behind. If you trade your new tech with everyone, they all get a little something once, while you get a little something from every single one of them. Therefore, you're the clear winner. Just make sure that when you do trade your tech, you trade it to everyone on the same turn before they have time to pass it around, because AIs passing it around is really no help to you. Much better to make everybody pay you than to have them pay each other.

The only instances where i wouldn't trade tech are :
1- I've got a tech that allows for a wonder that i intend to build.
2- I've got a tech that gives me a military advantage that i intend to use.
3- They've really got nothing even remotely interesting to offer in return (i.e. not even a decent sum of gold).

 

[humbe]

I haven't played Civ4 that much yet either, but this doesn't seem to have been altered much since Civ3. At higher difficulties, the AI researches techs easier than you. In addition the AI will trade amongst themselves. If you don't trade you're trying to outresearch the combined efforts of many AIs who can research easier than you can. So obviously, you have to trade techs to stand a chance to keep up with them. Actually, they might be researching too quick for you, so you might very seldom manage to research something in time to be able to trade it, so you might have to consider not researching at all, and just collecting money instead which you can use to buy the techs from the AI.

Whenever you get a tech you can sell or trade with the AI, do so, even though the trade may not be fair, some AI will probably invent it in a few turns, and trade it to the others if you don't. You being first at least gives you something in return.

Some civilizations may fall behind so much that they have nothing to trade with the other AI's to keep up, thus the number of actual challengers may decline. If there suddenly are few contenders and you are a huge nation, you might at some time manage to outresearch them, and be able to get ahead of them technologicly.. But this wont happen until late game if you play on tough difficulties.

On easy difficulties you can get by with whatever, so I don't consider them.

 

[Zombie69]

Just be clever in the way that you trade them and don't trade them to your tech superiors.

You can trade your tech which costs 500 for a tech that costs 400 but do that trade with civs with the lowest score. This prevents the slow techers from falling too far behind.

I couldn't disagree more. If you're not going to trade with everyone, the tech leader is the LAST person you'd want to ignore. Give the tech to the poor guys and not to him, and the next thing that happens is the poor guy gives it to him in exchange for techs he didn't have yet. If you're going to trade with only a select few, tech leaders should be your FIRST partners. But really, trade with everyone if you can. More gold for you.

 

[LeoV]

Intestingly, AIs are very willing to pay all their money for a tech if they have any interest in it. If you don't take advantage of this and "milk" them for their money, they might pay it for someone else's tech. In my current game, I keep 90-100% science by selling techs (or trading for a tech + money). Running a -20 deficit isn't bad when you have a 700 gold (and growing) money chest. Also you can choose to research techs others don't have, so you can trade them. On the other hand, researching a tech that all your neighbors already know is faster than new techs. Early Alphabet pretty much saved my backwards civ on Monarch, since I immediately jumped from behind to top-tier technological civ.

 

[Mauserspray]

Thanks for the great info and advice, guys. No wonder I was getting owned all the time by the AI...no tech trading essentially makes it your civ's research abilities versus the research of all the AI's put together.

The main difficulty I have is deciding *what* to trade or not. It makes sense not to trade techs that can lead to competition for a wonder or a free tech/GP, but I'm fuzzy on some of the others. Like Writing, or Education for example. Writing is a very early tech, I know, but it allows libraries. If I have those and the AI doesn't, that allows me to leap ahead in research for a while. Also, Education gives Universities, so that's another key ability. Should I trade these away and let the AI do his own research, therefore allowing him to get more techs that he can trade to me? It's kind of like making him a research partner, I guess.

Also, Zombie you answered my next question, which was "So basically if I am going to trade a tech at all, I should trade it to EVERYONE in that same turn, because the AI's will soon trade it to everyone else?" The AI's really are an incestuous bunch, aren't they. Normally I wouldn't trade it to someone who is annoyed with me, but perhaps I should because it will just get around to them anyways.

 

[Mauserspray]

Intestingly, AIs are very willing to pay all their money for a tech if they have any interest in it. If you don't take advantage of this and "milk" them for their money, they might pay it for someone else's tech. In my current game, I keep 90-100% science by selling techs (or trading for a tech + money). Running a -20 deficit isn't bad when you have a 700 gold (and growing) money chest. Also you can choose to research techs others don't have, so you can trade them. On the other hand, researching a tech that all your neighbors already know is faster than new techs. Early Alphabet pretty much saved my backwards civ on Monarch, since I immediately jumped from behind to top-tier technological civ.

Interesting. This gave me an idea. Anyone ever try contacting an AI, buying a tech from him for top dollar, and then turning around and selling it to all the other AI's before he gets the chance? Maybe do this with your closest ally so he will give you a better deal. This of course assumes that the instant an AI gets a tech he doesn't trade it away in the same turn...

 

[GeorgeOP]

Interesting. This gave me an idea. Anyone ever try contacting an AI, buying a tech from him for top dollar, and then turning around and selling it to all the other AI's before he gets the chance? Maybe do this with your closest ally so he will give you a better deal. This of course assumes that the instant an AI gets a tech he doesn't trade it away in the same turn...

Yes, I was actually able to do that. One Civ was frendly to me, but hated the other two Civs left. She was also the points leader, so I wanted to knock her down but didn't want my boys to die. So I paid for her top of the line military tech, and proceeded to trade it to the other two Civs. She was slightly mad because I had traded to her enemies, but I made a profit on that deal, the other two Civs now treated me as neutral instead of an enemy, and the other three Civs were soon at a stalemate war against each other. Trading them the tech kept them from attacking me, made me made me money, and wasted a lot of time and resources from everyone else. I kept refusing to join in the war on any side, which made both sides mad at me. But by the time they had stopped their war, I was the tech leader, and all of my fresh troops were near my boarder to prevent them from thinking of attacking me.

 

[Marquez]

I trade techs with the comp all the time. Of course you have to look at what is being traded. Most times the techs are harmless enough. I always hover the mouse over the techs and see what their research value is. If it's relatively even, I'll usually trade. When civs offer gold with an uneven trade I use one gold equal to on tech point. If it makes it fair, I'm not sure. It's just a rule of thumb I use. The comp seems to come out a little on top on almost every trade but that doesn't bother me too much. I've even taken completely uneven trades when giving away a harmless tech for something I know I'll have to research it later on.

I'm more concerned about the status of my research and not opposing civs. If I can get a tech without having to spend the time researching it, I usually will. There are however times when trading away techs does not seem to be favorable.

1. Military techs. When I have a powerful military tech that someone else doesn’t have, I practically never trade it away. Guilds, Military Tradition, Assembly Line, Industrialism and Composites are a few examples.
2. Wonder techs. You're concern about this is definitely warranted. If I'm in the process of building a wonder and a civ asks me for it, I usually don't trade. This all depends on how far along I am. But I'm always paranoid about some other civ using some Great Engineers to get it before I do. Once that Wonder is built either by me or someone else, that tech is fair game as far as I'm concerned.
3. Space Race. This gets a bit complicated and depends on how far along you are compared to other civs in building a space ship as well as how far along you are tech wise. If the Space Race win is becoming an option you pretty much need almost all of the later techs to win. I usually shut down Tech trading at that point. I may trade every once in a while to get an important prerequisite to a component tech. I've often found that civs going for a space race won't trade component techs with you anyway as they would "rather win the game".

4. The last consideration is how will this trade affect relations with other civs. I've seen “you've traded with our worst enemies" penalties as high as -4. This can really put a clamp on civ relations, especially if you're going for a diplomatic victory. Obviously, if some little civ who is the 'worst enemy' of one of my powerful friends or even one of my powerful non-friendly neighbors I won't trade. Plus, turning down a trade doesn't have any immediate diplomatic consequences. At least in my experiences.

With all this said, I will only trade a tech for a tech or tech/gold combo. If I'm gonna give away a tech I definitely want one in return. I've tried trading techs for resources but never had it successful. It seems to me the point of the tech race is to get ahead. If someone has a tech to offer, it usually means I am 'behind'. I try and get all the techs I don't have and then use my empire to produce enough research to eventually get and stay ahead. Trading techs with other civs can help in that goal. Even if you help a civ in the tech race and get a tech in return YOU ARE MOVING FORWARD AS WELL. Besides the points I mentioned earlier, that's all that matters.

 

[FenrysWulf]

Everyone always talks like you can trade at will with the AI, but I've had a lot of games recently where I'd want to trade techs and every single one the AI had was red, meaning I couldn't trade for it. Sometimes it is when they don't like me, but sometimes they like me fine and still won't trade. There's no use of having neighbors if they won't trade with you.

I was curious about if I started a custom game and turned off tech trading how that would affect the game. Would I be at an advantage, fall way behind, or no change? I just haven't tried it yet because I don't want to spend hours at the game and then suddenly realize I'm hopelessly behind. I tend to have large civilizations, so there's usually a time when my economy tanks and I fall behind, but then I catch up and when better government options are available I come charging back and take the lead. I wonder if not being able to trade would make it harder to catch up or make it harder for the ai to keep up once I get my feet under me.