That's it - Liberty is complete utter worthless trash

[lindsay40k]

(left side Honor before finishing Tradition) is still weaker play choices -- because it delays Tradition finisher, which the most OP of all the early policies, but only if you get it ASAP.

A squad of four Range Logistics archery units hits over an Era above its weight and will annihilate any pre-Modern rival other than a human player who both knows what they are doing and has access to a fast unit. Left side Honor brings about a military critical mass sooner than larger cities developing better weapons.

 

[beetle]

A squad of four Range Logistics archery units hits over an Era above its weight and will annihilate any pre-Modern rival other than a human player who both knows what they are doing and has access to a fast unit.

Agreed, which is why Honor can be a strong tree.

Left side Honor brings about a military critical mass sooner than larger cities developing better weapons.

Timing for the Honor finisher is not so crucial. So left-side Honor, Tradition opener for the border growth, then finishing out Honor is sensible.

Left-side Honor then full Tradition is not strong play. I mentioned how the severe delay to the Tradition finisher nerfs it, but the delay to monuments is equally terrible.

 

[apocalypse105]

A squad of four Range Logistics archery units hits over an Era above its weight and will annihilate any pre-Modern rival other than a human player who both knows what they are doing and has access to a fast unit. Left side Honor brings about a military critical mass sooner than larger cities developing better weapons.

Play china and pick honor the early general with china ability is powerfull and you can take a lot of capitals early with compasite bows after that upgrade to Chu-Ko-Nu who have the march promotio and see youre enemies burn.

 

[lindsay40k]

Agreed, which is why Honor can be a strong tree.

Timing for the Honor finisher is not so crucial. So left-side Honor, Tradition opener for the border growth, then finishing out Honor is sensible.

Left-side Honor then full Tradition is not strong play. I mentioned how the severe delay to the Tradition finisher nerfs it, but the delay to monuments is equally terrible.

My preferred approach is to open Tradition for the border pops, fill left side Honor and get farming XPs from a CS from the safety of a Citadel, and get taking Capitals. The delay on full Tradition isn't so bad, if you want to repurpose for a Science Victory; largely offset by having loads of great cities and being able to erect National Wonders fast. Certainly, I find leading my warband on their rampage more engaging than watching buckets fill up.

 

[beetle]

We seemed to have slipped off defending Liberty!

My preferred approach is to open Tradition for the border pops...

That part is fine -- so long as you skip Tradition (and Liberty) for the rest of the game. It is too late for them.

The delay on full Tradition isn't so bad...

The delay on full Tradition is quite bad. Legalism is giving you the more-hammers-but-actually-less-useful Amphitheaters. (Or you delayed shrines, which would be even worse.)

The delay to the finisher means throwing away the free Aqueducts or delaying them; neither choice is good.

And then all the other Tradition policies are late too. They are decent enough, but loose much of their appeal by not being timely and early. Those picks are now competing against compelling options in Exploration and Commerce. You still want to be rampaging, not filling buckets, right?

 

[zxcvbob]

If the game lasts a really long time, (400 turns or so) you'll want to come back to Tradition and take Oligarchy for the free garrisons. It can save you a lot of GPT.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I agree with Beetle actually. The only times it is ever a good decision to open Tradition and delay the finisher are these:

- You're playing as Poland and are mixing Tradition and Liberty
- You only opened Tradition for the opener in the first place
- You opened Liberty, but have a singular filler policy between the Liberty finisher and Rationalism

If you intent on filling out Tradition, then always do it as soon as possible. It is imperative.

Also I would never say that Oligarchy saves you a lot of gold when it is competing with the Commerce tree... Cost reduction is just so much better than raw gold per turn.

 

[zxcvbob]

Also I would never say that Oligarchy saves you a lot of gold when it is competing with the Commerce tree... Cost reduction is just so much better than raw gold per turn.

I was playing one recently where I had already won (don't remember if it was diplo or cultural or what) and I "just one more turn"ed to keep going and conquer the whole world. Already had Honor, Commerce, Piety, and Rationalism completed and most of Freedom. Unit maintenance was over 10 GPT each. I had a *lot* of cities and every one had a pike or horse or SAM (etc) for a garrison for the happiness and culture. Oligarchy was worth over 200 GPT. I know it's a weird case

 

[lindsay40k]

You still want to be rampaging, not filling buckets, right?

It depends entirely upon the geography and the witnesses. I'll often clnquer my continent with CBs & XBs, then if Kamehameha has not snitched on me then when I make contact with the rest of the world I'll often repurpose. Range Logistics Gatling Guns are lethal but they have to get within city attack range to fire - I prefer to use them as coastal defenders and have mounted units wander the scorched wilderness, keeping Honor culture & camp gold flowing in and chaining Citadels to new luxes. Filling out Tradition or Liberty with a conquered empire can be handy - I'm pretty certain I've had free Monuments in puppets, obviating the need to annex so as to buy important tiles.

 

[agonistes]

I tend to grab Tradition just for the culture/border boost, then liberty for the worker and settler, then back to Tradition for the wonder boost, then back to liberty for the engineer. Then I'll fill either out situationally until Exploration opens up.

Or, if I'm going to just sit on my land for a while and go to war later, like with cannons or something, Tradition would probably be better. Liberty just seems to suck in every way in every situation. The only way Liberty would outshine Honour or Tradition would be in a hypothetical magical fairlyand game where I magically have an enormous amount of land to settle at my leisure, and it's full of amazing great land with tons of fresh water and luxury resources, and I go and peacefully settle 10 cities by myself. In other words

>things that never happen in a game of Civ5.

To add insult to injury, Liberty has the worst wonder. The Statue of Zeus is at least marginally useful, I think I've built it a few times. The Hanging Gardens are awesome and I often build them in a Tradition game. The Pyramids? Pfft...

Or, maybe, you highly desire great engineers as great persons, and want to build Artemis and Stonehenge, but also the Great Lighthouse and Colossus, because they are OP wonders. But you can't fire off 3 or 4 settlers and do this, so Liberty helps. And that early worker can chop some wood to push out that 2nd city-made settler or granary before your capital goes into wonder production.

The pyramids are a pretty decent wonder. Bonus to workers, two free workers, and +1 engineer point? If I didn't feel guilty building them when I'm not Egypt, I would do it every game.

 

[agonistes]

It should be monument > granary almost always -- most people know this

Hmm. I've found that if I don't build Shrines first, in my first 4 cities (monument first in my capital), its pretty hard to get the religious picks that I want. I usually have to do this AND build Stonehenge to get Pagodas and Itinerant Preachers. But I don't usually pick a faith boosting Pantheon belief.