The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[onedreamer]

I made Thing Council (now Council of the Elders) highly expensive now. I have a feeling it might still be too powerful, but let's see. Maybe we should add another gold per unit? Otherwise, please feel free to make suggestions what we should do with the civics!

I don't get your point about Patronage. What are you trying to say?

Theocracy implies that your population is religiously fanaticized. That fanaticism gives them an extra edge in combat. I think we discussed that a lot in the Firaxis pre-release, but we finally stuck with the way it is.

Thing Council is not too overpowered if compared to Theocracy. This last one needs at least much higher upkeep cost.

About Patronage, with its high maintanance it's useless: you will easily be able to have many artists and scientists in a city anyways, merchants are not very useful unless in particular situations. What is hard to have are many engeneers and priests... so if a civic with high costs would allow that, then it would be worth. But as it stands now, for me it's useless. I never ever chose Caste System in vanilla.

Theocracy does in no way imply the population is religiously fanaticized. It implies the country is ruled by clergy, something that usually leads to the refuse or dislike by the population toward religion... but even assuming the opposite case, which still can and did happen, that should bring to increased gold income. A religious fanatic is not a better "warrior", actually any fanaticism is bad whenever you need a brain to think... and you do need it in a war. A religious fanatic on the other hand is a better "follower", he will always go to visit the temple/church/mosque etc and leave donations and the like.

 

[suspendinlight]

I don't have a lot of time right now but here are a couple I came up with. I agree it would be helpful if we started putting these into the Wiki or something so we can keep track of what has been written.

<Tag>TXT_KEY_TECH_DESPOTISM_QUOTE</Tag>
<English>"When all men speak, no man hears" - Proverb</English>

<Tag>TXT_KEY_TECH_EMPIRE_QUOTE</Tag>
<English>"Veni Vidi Vici" - Julius Caesar</English>

 

[thamis]

Thing Council is not too overpowered if compared to Theocracy. This last one needs at least much higher upkeep cost.

About Patronage, with its high maintanance it's useless: you will easily be able to have many artists and scientists in a city anyways, merchants are not very useful unless in particular situations. What is hard to have are many engeneers and priests... so if a civic with high costs would allow that, then it would be worth. But as it stands now, for me it's useless. I never ever chose Caste System in vanilla.

Theocracy does in no way imply the population is religiously fanaticized. It implies the country is ruled by clergy, something that usually leads to the refuse or dislike by the population toward religion... but even assuming the opposite case, which still can and did happen, that should bring to increased gold income. A religious fanatic is not a better "warrior", actually any fanaticism is bad whenever you need a brain to think... and you do need it in a war. A religious fanatic on the other hand is a better "follower", he will always go to visit the temple/church/mosque etc and leave donations and the like.

Hmm... I think Patronage is highly useful, considering it's such an early civic. If you never use Caste System in vanilla civ, then there's a playstyle you haven't understood yet. You can win the game by swamping out great people... Caste System is a highly powerful civic!

We could change Theocracy. Make a suggestion.

 

[Leptomeninges]

What follows are a few thoughts on my first game. Obviously you all have put a good deal of work into the mod and it shows. These are just suggestions that you can consider or ignore as you choose.

A. I personally think this mod is dying for a bigger map. I understand the desire to have a "faster" map and I hear that a bigger map is in the works, but I will give you several reasons for why this is so important:
1. Before I built my second city I was contacted by seven other civilizations. This without a single scout. Just sitting in my city building. One of the clever things about TAM for Civ 3 was the fact that it beat some cheap strategies such as tech whoring by making contact with another civ such a challenge.
2. Civ 3 TAM had a great epic feel. The sheer size of the map demanded *Empire* building and the challenges that came along with it. A map this small loses that.
3. Again, in Civ 3 TAM, every civ had a natural prey and a natural predator. Cramming the map down loses this. It denies several civs natural areas in which to expand.
4. Overpowered religion. On a small, crowded, map, the early religions end up dominant and overpowered for the civilizations that discover them.

B. Unit exp -- I read and understand the concept behind high unit experience. Given that plan, I'd try to incorporate one of the promotions mods or something like it. A unit with 36 exp to start with ends up looking very much like most other 36 exp units. Specialization is defeated to some degree.

C. "Flavor" -- One of the things I loved about TAM for Civ 3 were all the flavor elements. The way civilizations were made unique with units and wonders. The resource additions. The rules changes. Even the graphics set. I know that TAM is still a work in progress. Consider this encouragement to continue the work

D. Overpowered defense -- This was covered in another post. In short, I agree. As I recall TAM for Civ 3 purposefully created weak defenders to encourage conquest. This version seems to have gone in the opposite direction.

I may have some specific rule change suggestions later, but I want to mull them over a bit. Thanks again for all your hard work. I appreciate the effort that has gone into this.

 

[Wei-Yan]

Lol he just said everything i was going to

 

[suspendinlight]

A couple of thoughts as I get my first chance to look at your content. I am probably bringing up things that have been discussed before, but here are some general comments:
-I agree Theocracy could be changed in principle, but I'm not sure its necessary. -I don't know if "Path of the Mystics" is really an appropriate civic (and certainly the name could use some work) since it seems to cover just about the same thing as both Organized Religion and Theocracy since there is not much difference between mystics and priests. I've been trying to come up with some suggetions, but haven't been able to think of any. Are you trying to simulate the Oracle of Delphi and other such things ala ancient Greece?
-Javilineers could be renamed skirmishers
-Obelisks could be renamed steles, a more general type of monument than an obelisk which is more culture specific


And some gameplay issues I noticed:
-"Holy Site" is listed twice under the Nature Cult "allows you to build" section.
-Unit balance seems a bit off. Just building warriors without really trying, I was able to destroy two rival civs right away.
-Javelineers seem weak, especially given that they are much more expensive than warriors.
-As others have said, the map is too small and I would like to see it extended into Iran a bit more

 

[lchall]

I'm playing my first game with this mod and I really like it, but I agree with the above three posts regarding improvements that could make it better, and hopefully as good as Civ 3 TAM. In addition, the most glaring thing that stood out to me in my game, and that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the high amount of gold I'm generating each turn. This also seems to be reflected in offers I have received from the AI leaders wanting to buy tech - they must also have high gold balances. I think one of the reasons for this is the low cost of civics. Right now with somewhat less than 200 turns to play my civics are only costing one gold per turn. In all the games of Civ 4 I have played I have never seen such a low cost. I was just wondering if this is intended or if it is a bug.

 

[GrandMatt]

Good Work Guys, reading your plan on implementation of the heroes, is that goin to be like a regicide, where if your king dies you lose>?? or just a uber unit. ?

 

[HolyOne]

I noticed that the upgrade for praetorian is infantry, which is much worse: 6 strength instead of 8 and less bonuses. I discovered the tech and cannot build praetorians any more Right in the middle of my war with the gauls.
Oh, and the year count seems to be the same as in the default. I'm around 1800 AD and just recently discovered irrigation
The Road Building tech allows railroad, which cannot be built for obvious reasons I think it should increase movement on roads.

 

[thamis]

@Map size:
Ok, ok, I got it. Bigger map is on the way. If someone is willing to work on one and beat me to it, feel free!

@Early contact:
Tech trading is moved to fairly late in the game, right? At least it should be. That should make the early contact less significant.

@Unit XP:
We gotta find a balance. Still trying to figure it out. If you encounter something like this, please feel free to make improvement suggestions.

@Flavour:
Definitely coming... There aren't even UUs yet, so...

@Defense:
A simple oversight of total defense boni here. Expect a *significant* reduction -- below normal CIV levels.

@Civics:
I'm not changing any civic unless someone comes up with something better. Path of the Mystic (which I originally called Magocracy), is meant to say that magi, astrologers, and oracles at some time played a highly important role in terms of government decision making. Remember Croesus / Krisos.

@Skirmishers:
Skirmisher is a unit TYPE (archer and javelineer).

@Obelisks:
Good idea.

@Unit balance:
Please make suggestions!

@Gold:
The civic costs are exactly the same as in normal civ. Two low ones, one high, one medium, one none -- in each category. I have no idea why you would get so much gold... There are LESS gold-producing buildings in TAM than in normal civ... Gotta look into that. If anyone figures it out... post!

@Heroes:
&#220;ber-unit, and only one per nation at a a time.

@Preatorian:
Oops. We haven't really done unique units yet, so that'll be changed!

@Years:
Will be changed from -8000 BC to +500 AD (or so)

@Road Building:
We'll change the prerequisites for railroads, rename it to Imperial Road, and allow less movement on it.

 

[lchall]

To provide more information: I'm playing as Rome (organized trait reduces civics cost by 50%). In 1795 AD I have 6379 Gold growing at +51 per turn. Income is 70 and expenses are 19 consisting of 9 Unit Cost, 4 City Maintenance, 1 Civics Upkeep, and 5 Inflation. The civics consist of 1 No Upkeep, 2 Low, 1 Medium and 1 High. These should certainly cost more than 1 gold per turn. In case it helps I have attached a save game file that reflects this. If I can provide any more information or help in solving this, please let me know.

 

[thamis]

Ichall:

Thanks for the save. My CIV is a bit broken right now, I've installed too many pre-release patches and am on a different version than you. I guess that's why when I try to load your save, CIV crashes. I gotta reinstall.

My goal with TAM is to actually REDUCE the amount of gold available in the game. We can simply increase city mainenance, which should be easy. Unit maintenance we can increase, but only in 100% steps, which is a bit drastic.

Why do you only have 9 unit cost? How many units do you have? What civics do you use?

 

[lchall]

According to the financial advisor screen the 9 unit cost is broken down as follows:
18 for units (41 toal units - free support for 23 units)
0 Military Unit Cost for 35 units (39 military units - free support for 4 units)
-9 Handicap Cost (playing at Noble difficulty)

I have no idea where the 23 free units are coming from or why there is no Military Unit Cost.

The civics I presently have are:
Chiefdom
Council of Elders (provides 7 free units)
Slavery
Nature Cult
Organized Religion

My state religion is Greek Pantheon

I hope this helps you figure out what is going on. If you need anything else, please let me know.

 

[Ironfoot]

I was wondering if you were planning on more wonders. Possibly thing's like using Broadway as a model for Greek Tragedies/Comedies, Maybe also adding the Sphinx, the Roman Coliseum or Hippodrome, Hadrians Wall, the Acropolis, Ziggurat and the like. I think it could certainly add more flavor to a really cool MOD!!

 

[geebo]

any move to make religions only to be founded by certain civs... something as in Europa Europa... only because it kind of stubid having Rome discover Egyptian Pantheon(and so on)... just an idea....

 

[BenGee171]

You got much work left... hold your head over the water.

 

[Warmaker]

I was a big fan of TAM mod for Civ III, so the minute I heard about a version for Civ IV, I went for it ASAP.

I know that TAM for Civ IV is still early in the works but here's my input / observations.

* I was playing as the Romans and I eventually got the Praetorians. Later, I received the Military Traditions tech and now the Praetorians are now unavailable. The existing Praetorians I have can be "upgraded" to inferior "Infantry" who have a strength of 6 compared to the Praetorians' 8. I later got the tech to recruit "Armored Infantry" which the surviving Praetorians can upgrade to, but they seem to statistically be the same thing, and lack the nice Praetorian icon and skin.

* May I suggest to remove the plume from the Praetorians' helmet? Also, rename the Praetorian unit to something like Legionary or Legion. Why? The Praetorians weren't the mainstream force of the Roman army, the Legionaries were.

* I was having problems with the tough defenses at first. Of course, high strength and city assault traits alleviate this. Catapults are a definite must haves for high defense cities sitting on hills. Still, defenses I think get a tad bit high, but then again, we can get alot of mods.

 

[Shqype]

The Praetorian Guard was composed of many Illyrians

Thamis, you may be working on making changes now, so I will not touch the files, but once a new version is posted, I can take that, and edit in the Illyrians, to make it that much easier for you.

Or, if you send me a file before you release it, I can get it done quickly and send it back to you for release

I can't wait to play this mod

 

[sapon]

@Map size:
Ok, ok, I got it. Bigger map is on the way. If someone is willing to work on one and beat me to it, feel free!

Thamis,

DId you have a chance to check out this map: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=156846

???

It looks to be a very well done map, with perhaps only some tundra/ice to the Russian northern lattitudes needed. Of course resources would have to be looked at for balance/accuracy.

 

[thamis]

It is a very well-done map... but it's so huge towards Russia... Germanic Tribes and Goths and Scythians would be the &#252;ber-civs.