The district system

[kaspergm]

I was talking specifically about population growth and how it's represented as the city "grows". Trying to model accurate population dynamics requires a simulation with far greater fidelity than Civilisation has ever offered. The franchise has always gone with "one point of Population equals one workable tile, etc, et al". There has never been a accurate modelling of the a City's population which is why I find it a bit silly to expect the City's aesthetics to 100% mirror some kind of organic population growth. At best you'll get a rudimentary approximation, which is fine because you can't really program that kind of simulation accurately without an absolute metric ton of geographical data (including census surveys and so on).

What it comes down to is the ends that the game is made for. I don't see any particular value in "accurately modelling population dynamics" for that end in itself. But if one can come up with a game mechanism that will make the game more fun and which will at the same time add realism to the game, then it's a win/win. I think gameplay trumps realism at any point, but obviously if you can have the two go hand in hand, why not?

So putting things differently, what is it you are objecting to here? Is there any aspect of the things being discussed here that you feel actually hurts gameplay? Because if not, I don't really see the problem.

 

[Gorbles]

What it comes down to is the ends that the game is made for. I don't see any particular value in "accurately modelling population dynamics" for that end in itself. But if one can come up with a game mechanism that will make the game more fun and which will at the same time add realism to the game, then it's a win/win. I think gameplay trumps realism at any point, but obviously if you can have the two go hand in hand, why not?

So putting things differently, what is it you are objecting to here? Is there any aspect of the things being discussed here that you feel actually hurts gameplay? Because if not, I don't really see the problem.

I think complaining that the visuals for the City housing not accurately matching population spread over time is . . . overcomplaining.

I mean I've gotten two different people replying to me from the guy I originally quoted. Things are getting lost in translation, here.

 

[kaspergm]

Oh, yes, I understand your point.

 

[Amrunril]

The discussion of espionage, a system absent in vanilla Civ V (and IV ?) but added in an expansion, makes me realize that, among many potential advantages of the district system, one likely disadvantage is that it will make expansions more difficult to develop and balance. When, for instance, religion and tourism were added to Civ V, associated buildings had to be added to the game. If similar additions were are made to Civ VI (religion and tourism are apparently in the base game, but I'm sure the developers will come up with other ideas when they start working on expansions) the new buildings will have to either be added to an existing district (which would probably be an awkward fit) or have a new district created for them. Rather than simply adding to the potential build queue, a new district would physically take up space on the map, and while one such new district might not be a big deal, increasing the number of potential districts from 12 to, say, 16 would dramatically alter either the frequency with which original districts are built or the amount of land available for other purposes (similarly, now that wonders take up tiles, increasing the number of wonders in the game will decrease the amount of land available for districts and improvements).

 

[dexters]

The discussion of espionage, a system absent in vanilla Civ V (and IV ?) but added in an expansion, makes me realize that, among many potential advantages of the district system, one likely disadvantage is that it will make expansions more difficult to develop and balance. When, for instance, religion and tourism were added to Civ V, associated buildings had to be added to the game. If similar additions were are made to Civ VI (religion and tourism are apparently in the base game, but I'm sure the developers will come up with other ideas when they start working on expansions) the new buildings will have to either be added to an existing district (which would probably be an awkward fit) or have a new district created for them. Rather than simply adding to the potential build queue, a new district would physically take up space on the map, and while one such new district might not be a big deal, increasing the number of potential districts from 12 to, say, 16 would dramatically alter either the frequency with which original districts are built or the amount of land available for other purposes (similarly, now that wonders take up tiles, increasing the number of wonders in the game will decrease the amount of land available for districts and improvements).

There are fewer build-able districts than there are tiles available to a city.
Initial screenshot analysis suggests the same number of tiles available to a city in Civ5 will be available in Civ6.

We could be wrong about that, but I suspect food yields could be improved to require less farms allowing new districts to be built.

Actually, my first impression was that they didn't want all the tiles to be filled with districts from the get-go precisely to leave room for more districts to be added later in expansions.

 

[Amrunril]

There are fewer build-able districts than there are tiles available to a city.
Initial screenshot analysis suggests the same number of tiles available to a city in Civ5 will be available in Civ6.

We could be wrong about that, but I suspect food yields could be improved to require less farms allowing new districts to be built.

Actually, my first impression was that they didn't want all the tiles to be filled with districts from the get-go precisely to leave room for more districts to be added later in expansions.

Yes, I understand that each city will have more tiles than districts. However, I don't think that having all, or even most, of the tiles filled with districts is a desirable outcome even after expansions. There still needs to be room for farms, mines and everything else you do with tiles in Civ V. What the balance between these uses (and wonders) should be is debatable, I just find it a bit problematic that adding new mechanics to the game will, by necessity, alter that balance.

 

[dexters]

Yes, I understand that each city will have more tiles than districts. However, I don't think that having all, or even most, of the tiles filled with districts is a desirable outcome even after expansions. There still needs to be room for farms, mines and everything else you do with tiles in Civ V. What the balance between these uses (and wonders) should be is debatable, I just find it a bit problematic that adding new mechanics to the game will, by necessity, alter that balance.

I agree. 12 districts are available in Vanilla. I can see it going to 13-15, districts with the 'cap' for # of districts buildable per city going up slightly.

I think they already said a city can't build all 12, either.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Why are we already talking about expansion and also assuming so many new systems that it would necessitate as many as four new districts? This is assuming far too much.

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[dexters]

Why are we already talking about expansion and also assuming so many new systems that it would necessitate as many as four new districts? This is assuming far too much.

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The concern was that the district system would limit new mechanics tied to new buildings later on.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The discussion of espionage, a system absent in vanilla Civ V (and IV ?) but added in an expansion, makes me realize that, among many potential advantages of the district system, one likely disadvantage is that it will make expansions more difficult to develop and balance.

That's absolutely good point. However:

1. With expansion it will be possible to twist the system as needed. In BNW when developers realized they don't have enough social policy tree, they changed the concept of ideologies.

2. I have a feeling we'll not see expansions as they were in previous civ titles. Before Civ6 all games in the series were designed "if you add 1 feature you need to remove 1", so they were expansion ready. In Civ6 developers declared they've thrown everything in. Game market changed and small DLC like additional civs already went well in Civ5, so developers could stick to such updates instead of full-scale expansion and make gameplay fixes in patches.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

The concern was that the district system would limit new mechanics tied to new buildings later on.

And what are the new mechanics, and what are these buildings? We don't even know what new features and buildings are in the base game and already we're speculating about an expansion, and assuming the developers are going to screw it up by using too much map space with the new districts for the new the building we don't know about from the features added by the expansion that's assumed to be made after the game that is not yet released is released.
Metaphorical mechanics, theoretical buildings.
There's not enough room on my spaceship to hold all my dragons! Or is there???

 

[dexters]

And what are the new mechanics, and what are these buildings? We don't even know what new features and buildings are in the base game and already we're speculating about an expansion, and assuming the developers are going to screw it up by using too much map space with the new districts for the new the building we don't know about from the features added by the expansion that's assumed to be made after the game that is not yet released is released.
Metaphorical mechanics, theoretical buildings.
There's not enough room on my spaceship to hold all my dragons! Or is there???

I was responding to this post up thread.
Quoted below

The discussion of espionage, a system absent in vanilla Civ V (and IV ?) but added in an expansion, makes me realize that, among many potential advantages of the district system, one likely disadvantage is that it will make expansions more difficult to develop and balance. When, for instance, religion and tourism were added to Civ V, associated buildings had to be added to the game. If similar additions were are made to Civ VI (religion and tourism are apparently in the base game, but I'm sure the developers will come up with other ideas when they start working on expansions) the new buildings will have to either be added to an existing district (which would probably be an awkward fit) or have a new district created for them. Rather than simply adding to the potential build queue, a new district would physically take up space on the map, and while one such new district might not be a big deal, increasing the number of potential districts from 12 to, say, 16 would dramatically alter either the frequency with which original districts are built or the amount of land available for other purposes (similarly, now that wonders take up tiles, increasing the number of wonders in the game will decrease the amount of land available for districts and improvements).

 

[UWHabs]

And remember, not all new features would require new districts.

I'd expect that they'll eventually get up to 16 districts by the last expansion, and it may just be that they force tougher decisions on you. Or the changes they end up adding in expansions are less related to cities and more to other parts of the Empire (combat, exploration, seafaring, techs, diplomacy, or simply other systems that are outside of cities).

And maybe the districts do make it hard for expansions. If so, great! Because that means they probably got it right the first time.

 

[Nixalo]

Well it all really depends on if the "terrain matters" goal is reached.

For example, if the districts follow the same sorta path as CivV, in the ancient era you have

• Culture (Monument)
• Religion (Shrine)
• Education (Library)
• Production (stone works/water mill)
• Military (barracks)
• Food (Granary)

If you get a forest river start with furs, you have an insensitive to so Religion or Food. You could force it into a Education or (new expansion type) focus but it would be weaker or a slower process as your first city.

 

[Tantor]

Well it all really depends on if the "terrain matters" goal is reached.

For example, if the districts follow the same sorta path as CivV, in the ancient era you have

• Culture (Monument)
• Religion (Shrine)
• Education (Library)
• Production (stone works/water mill)
• Military (barracks)
• Food (Granary)

If you get a forest river start with furs, you have an insensitive to so Religion or Food. You could force it into a Education or (new expansion type) focus but it would be weaker or a slower process as your first city.

If I understand correctly there will still be hex improvements making Food, Production etc. The Districts will contain buildings that modify the total output of the improvements. IE a mine increases Your Production --> an industrial District next to it will contain buildings that increase the Production of the mine. This means we will have to find a balance between improvements and Districts....

 

[Nixalo]

If I understand correctly there will still be hex improvements making Food, Production etc. The Districts will contain buildings that modify the total output of the improvements. IE a mine increases Your Production --> an industrial District next to it will contain buildings that increase the Production of the mine. This means we will have to find a balance between improvements and Districts....

Actually I think it is more like this.

There are hex improvements and districts.
Imagine your start is on a river in a forest surrounded by Deer and Stone. You build a scout first.
If you build a warrior next and kill barbarians, Bronze Working will be cheaper and you will unlock a melee unit with it faster.

If you build a worker and put a mine on the Stone, Masonry will be cheaper and you will unlock stone works with it faster
If you build a worker and put a camp on the Deer, Animal Husbandry will be cheaper and you will unlock circus with it faster.
If you build a holy district near the forest, Religious techs will be cheaper.
If you build a worker and make a bunch of farms and a food district with a Granary, Calendar will unlock faster an you'll get Watermill for your food district.
If you do none of this and go for Fishing, it will take forever to research since you have no boats.


So you won't be making districts and improvements all over the place until late game as you'll lack the tech for them. Your military or religious civ won't even have a National college to put in a campus district until post Medieval era

 

[Haig]

Do you think walls will be built around city-centre or disctrics?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Do you think walls will be built around city-centre or disctrics?

Walls are built around city center and protect the city center only, plus give it a ranged attack. It's possible to have another point to launch ranged attacks from by building an encampment.

 

[Nixalo]

Do you think walls will be built around city-centre or disctrics?

My guess is

Walls/Castle will be for city center tile only.
The military encampment district will get its own wall like bonus via Barracks/Arenesal/etc.
The Great Wall gives all you districts the Walled bonus.
Maybe get "Walls" in your harbors via a naval base late game.

 

[AriochIV]

If I understand correctly there will still be hex improvements making Food, Production etc. The Districts will contain buildings that modify the total output of the improvements. IE a mine increases Your Production --> an industrial District next to it will contain buildings that increase the Production of the mine. This means we will have to find a balance between improvements and Districts....

Thus far the previews mention that the position of the District affects the bonuses/outputs of the buildings within it. I haven't seen anything to indicate that the positioning of the district affects the yields of improvements next to it; we would expect a Forge to increase the output of worked Iron tiles in a city, but not necessarily just ones adjacent to the District that contains the Forge.

Walls/Castle will be for city center tile only.
The military encampment district will get its own wall like bonus via arracks/Arenesal/etc.

That's what it sounds like from the descriptions we have.