The Germans

[binyo66]

Originally posted by JMK
Ision I agree with your review
German is a good Civ to play at high level (Diety / PTW) when the Tech race goes faster; then the Panzer comes on time, your cities are developped, Your GA will allow you to get a Panzer/City/Turn... Game Over.

I used to play roman. But many time Germany was randomly chosen on Emperor. And I love them. Doesnt need to be Deity .

 

[Kaboth]

Ision I just wondered how you prepare to write each of these civ reviews?

Do you play each civ 1 or more times before writing these reviews or are just making judgements on past experience?

 

[Darzee]

Is there a place where I can just find a thread that lists all of your top/middle/bottom tier choices?

Sorry if it's been asked before. Thanks.

 

[troytheface]

i think someone mentioned a Hittite comparison with ol Germany.....to this I agree. I like to play both civs in Single player (Emperor - Huge) and disagree about having to wait to get Germany going. Archers and risk taking will often go very far and the archer rush that Germany can do is better than any other civ i have tried..including ol babylon- which would seem the natural archer rush civ-
The Panzer I liken to the Hittite Chariot...survivability is up on these, and stack attacks just seem to tear thru the oppostion.
I now never play these civs on Emperor as I can win to easily with them....(if i am not on a isle!) Now i will read ur take on the babylonians who-like the germans and hittites- i can win regularly with on Single Player- but fail miserably with on Multi -Player....
Enjoy your revues...interesting comments and well written-
a pleasurable read...

 

[Ision]

Kaboth,

Do you play each civ 1 or more times before writing these reviews or are just making judgements on past experience?

Both.


Darzee, - no there is not.


troytheface,

i think someone mentioned a Hittite comparison with ol Germany.....to this I agree.

I do NOT agree. The dynamics of the 2 Civs are far different. A better comparison to Germany is Russia.

Enjoy your revues...interesting comments and well written-

I sincerely appreciate your kind remarks - thanks!


Ision

 

[Turner]

Originally posted by Darzee
Is there a place where I can just find a thread that lists all of your top/middle/bottom tier choices?

Sorry if it's been asked before. Thanks.

Use the Search button, and put Ision's name in the poster part. You'll have to wade through some stuff, but with the proper search terms it shouldn't be that hard.

 

[mac224]

"3 tanks to kill a inf.." I'm by no means a Civ expert but I am an experienced wargamer. If you are attaking full-strength infantry with tanks (or panzers), you deserve to lose them. It lacks craftsmanship. I'm finding the Panzer is freakin' awesome. You just have to know how to use it.

Build lots of infantry, artillery, and bombers along with your panzers. Actually I have more artillery (mainly old cannon upgrades) than anything else. Soften up any enemy you plan to attack with bombardment first until all units in the target square are down to 1 or at MOST 2 hit points. (I use mostly artillery, keeping bombers for deeper attacks). Then and only then should you attack with your panzers. NEVER attack a full-strength infantry unit (Well actually, never attack ANY full-strength unit if you can avoid it). With all defenders down to 1 or 2 hit points, a single panzer can kill 2 or 3 units each turn, vs the 1 unit for a normal tank. Not only do you rip through the enemies but you are turning them from veterans into elite 2-3 times faster than any other civ can match.

Take out the last defending unit(s) with infantry and move in, garrison cities with more infantry, and keeping them surrounded by infantry/artillery combos. By heavy bombardment you also take down the population of enemy cities and seldom need to raze them once captured. You can always move in a few workers from your home cities to stabilize the population.

Keep the bombers in your original front-line cities to have deep striking power to take out enemy rail lines and roads leading to the front. As the front moves forward, build your own airbase cities with settlers, don't risk them in captured cities. The enemy civ can never mount a really effective counter-attack if you take down his rail lines.

Follow your advance with many workers and use the workers from captured cities to repair the road and rail lines your bombers destroyed (several per square).

A well-done blitzkrieg is an awesome sight.

mac

@scoutsout

Several good points here. But i'am still not too convinced. The blitz ability allows to strike multiple times, the one more movement point allows a field deeper inside the enemy territory.
Doing some math: Vet Tank vs. fortified Vet Inf. in a size 12+ city. Chance to win for the panzer: 29.9%. So you need in avarange 3 tanks to kill a inf. Some of them may retreat, still the losses can be quite hard. And this is an ideal situation. Cities on hills make the odds even harder, rivers may force you cross them first before attaking. The blitz ability can be forgotten, since the panzer will barely survive the first attack. It is really great in combination with bombers/artillery. But alone most panzers won't have a chance to attack a second time at all.
IMO a panzer rush can be rewarding, as long as your already stronger as your enemy and can affort the losses. I doubt it will work very efficiantly at the higher difficulties against a strong neigbour.

 

[mac224]

Yoshi74, I apologize for not reading your post more carefully. You were just making a point about relative strengths and why one should NOT attack full-strength infantry with armor. My bad.

I do love late-industrial age warfare though!

mac

"3 tanks to kill a inf.." I'm by no means a Civ expert but I am an experienced wargamer. If you are attaking full-strength infantry with tanks (or panzers), you deserve to lose them.....etc

 

[Bibor]

Yeah, I liked the color of Germany in CIV1 hehehe. Blue cities and units - black railoads. muhahhaha

I will add something to ision's post:

Why is panzer a good UU? Because it's a gamebreaker when it's most needed (if needed at all). It comes just before the opponent is able to build the UN and/or spaceparts. So, if you are "catching up" with someone, there's no way someone can survive a rush of golden age panzers. They are the best unit until modern armor. And movement 3 is still great in enemy territory. Combined with bombers - its deadly (actually, its a typical Blitzkrieg: dive-bombers first, tanks next, infantry follows).

And about defence value? well, noone can say defence 8 with retreat ability is bad. Name a industrial unit except tank that can effectively kill a panzer on 1 on 1? Marines, maybe.
At that time, only cavalry has movement 3 to penetrate the enemy territory fast. And they have attack 6, not 16...

-kirby

 

[mac224]

At that time, only cavalry has movement 3 to penetrate the enemy territory fast. And they have attack 6, not 16...
-kirby

In fact a very frequent match-up vs the AI seems to be cav vs tanks. I mean it is one-sided anyway but with panzers its pure slaughter.

mac

 

[rbis4rbb]

I agree. Secondly, the AI NEVER plays Germany well.

 

[Bagatur]

I never allowed Bismark to have panzers))

 

[Enkidu_Warrior]

the balancing act germany provides is a spot on observation, and one that offers greater fun and challenge than other, more focussed, civs, where you dont have the choices/challenges.

although it's nothing to rely on, i find another strength in playing the germans to be the increased frequency of scientific great leaders. in one game, i got a great leader with our first tech discovery. having played several games with them, they've averaged 1 per age (by camprison, other civs are lucky to get 2 the whole game). this means grabbing the pyramids or library in the AA is actually within reach, and leonardo's in the MA is as well.

although i would never build, nor recommend, a strategy around the luck factor behind scientific leaders, over the course of the game you are highly likely get these nice little easter eggs, which can give you a leg up early, or short cut production of a later wonder so that you can get back to infrastructure/military unit production. this can nicely offset some of the early struggles of the slow start.

(note: this is the first of these i've read, ision, excellent work. i plan to read more.)

 

[Pfeffersack]

Yes, SGLs are nice, but their frequence is for Germany just as high as for other scientific nations.
However, Germany is also militaristic (and has a nice UU for leader-farming, too)...this means you are more likely to get MGLs, too.They work of course in a different way, but under special circumstances this can work nevertheless nice together.Imagine you are going for a 20k victory; use the SGLs to rush the GWs and the MGLs the small ones.This strategy becomes especially powerful in a mod like RaR, where are plenty of high-culture SWs.

 

[budweiser]

When I play Germany I try to add an extra challenge of balancing the number of panzers I allow myself to build based on the ratio of infantry I have something like 4 or 5 inf to 1 panzer. Maybe more, I dont know I cant seem to find a good balance. I also try to limit my arty and bombers so I dont end up with ludicrous levels of artillery. In short I try to create a military structure that is close to what I think they had in WWII. I build few capitol ships. I also try for a similar force balance through out the diferent periods of the game.

 

[Strato]

This was a really good review to read, and sort of followed my latest game I played with the Germans. Ruling out democracy, well I'm not too sure on that (I am new to Civ III, so maybe my thoughts aren't justified) however, being scientific, a democracy is useful in the game to really boost the tech's, and help pull Germany back into the catch up game. It really pays to focus on acquiring luxury resources during this time however. But republic early, and then following into Communism later down the track when war is a tactical option makes good sense.

The Panzers are great, but definately not good for taking cities, which Yoshi seemed to point out. For a defensive war, which is what I was playing at one point later in the game, then that is when the Panzer's come into their own with the blitz ability, and extra movement point that early tanks don't have. Considering a barracks will push out a vet, then it is easy enough to be promoted to elite when the war is on the home front, because Panzers will simply crush anything out on the open plains. But taking cities still do need the supporting fire from bombers/artillery.

Great review Ision

 

[Alexsy]

Secondly, among the criticisms is the ‘late golden age’ argument. This argument is a FAIR one. The late industrial age UU means that Germanys only means to an Ancient or Middle Age ‘golden age’ is by wonder building. That said, a patient German player can selectively nail 1 Ancient Age wonder and a well timed Middle Age wonder to trigger his Golden Age. Nevertheless, this fact alone leaves Germany as a less than desirable ‘always at war choice’ and hampers even a standard warmonger approach.

this review inspired me to try the germans, and now they are one of my favorite civs to play. i would just like to offer one comment re: the above passage. i have found the so-called 'late' GA to not be especially detrimental. an industrial age GA is actually a great time to have one, as techs and city infrastructure are getting more expensive, units costlier, etc. so i actually enjoy the "late" GA provided by a Panzer or a wonder like Theory of Evolution. i'll just give an example: in a game i'm currently playing, i built ToE, triggered a GA, and built 3 small wonders (military academy, battlefield medicine, heroic epic) and the Hoover Dam.

 

[Zardnaar]

this review inspired me to try the germans, and now they are one of my favorite civs to play. i would just like to offer one comment re: the above passage. i have found the so-called 'late' GA to not be especially detrimental. an industrial age GA is actually a great time to have one, as techs and city infrastructure are getting more expensive, units costlier, etc. so i actually enjoy the "late" GA provided by a Panzer or a wonder like Theory of Evolution. i'll just give an example: in a game i'm currently playing, i built ToE, triggered a GA, and built 3 small wonders (military academy, battlefield medicine, heroic epic) and the Hoover Dam.

While not a bad time as such an earlier GA will often let you expand faster. With the right conditions another cis can win the game before the Panzer is even available.

 

[bkwrm79]

Even with Vanilla, I enjoyed playing the Germans; the key to an offensive with Panzers is air support. Infantry and Artillery are for holding ground, Panzers preceded by Bombers are how to take it. That way you can strike deep.

 

[dannergreg]

I play as warlord. I always play Germany. They are the best. My first ever game of civ I played the Romans. I continued to play as the Romans for a few games. Then I thought I would try something new. So I played as the Germans. Every game that I have played since then has been the Germans. Great reveiw except for one huge flaw, GERMANY IS A FIRST TIER CIVILIZATION!!!!!!!!!!