The glorious Evolution of Master of Mana - The Red Desert of Cruoris / First screenshot of standalone version / Feedback needed

[Sephi]

Opinion: You should use hexagonal tiles rather than squares for your game. Square tiles in a 4x game just look so dated nowadays, and hexes feel a lot more natural to play on.

yeah, I used hexagonal tiles for the 2d version. For the tooling I have available for 3d hex tiles are like a +20% quality buff and -300% productivity debuff so I moved to squares. The big companies can pull off 3d hexes since they have fairly large production budgets. Even mid sized projects (for 4x standards) like the remaster of master of magic from last year struggle with 3d hexes. Their terrain map sadly looks extremely bland and dated despite having hexes.

I do plan to make the terrain in general less squary. I started with a very sharp square layout so that it is easy to see what terrain on which tile but I'll try to find a compromise that looks more natural. Currently I am making the blend between grassland and plains less regular. But hexes will always have an advantage when it comes to natural shape.

 

[Sephi]

Progress is really good at the moment. I also iterated a bit more on the interface style and I quite like the law screen now (laws are similar to civics, just different name).

The laws system is a bit like civics in civ4, but with a couple twists.

You can set one law doctrine. Law doctrines symbolize general concepts like Free Trade, Arcane Power or Organized Crime. The concepts are very generic so that they work for all civs. So gnome engineers, orc shamans or human bloodmages could all use the Arcane Power doctrine. Different civs have access to different laws. Some law doctrines you have access to at turn 1, others you have to research.

You can set two ruling class laws. By giving law privileges to various groups they will in return provide support to your empire. These groups are mostly very specific defined. So for example instead of a merchant class you have different trade related guilds like the Helpful Travellers which all provide unique bonuses and have their own lore.

Common Laws have no restriction on how many of them you can set. Each of them either gives a combination of bonus and malus or a very small bonus.

All laws will affect your alignment. So instead of having evil as a requirement to sacrifice the weak you can allow by law to sacrifice the weak and then other rulers would consider you more evil. I have replaced the good/neutral/evil alignments with ten different values that summarize how other leader see your empire and you as a leader. Leaders with similar values will like you (or atleast respect you) and leaders with opposing values will hate you. So diplomacy is deeply connected to the laws system.

 

[Jojo_Fr]

This is super interesting. I would kindly agree to pay to play such a game

 

[MLG Samantha]

I agree. I'd also like to say that it's fair if you don't want to use hex tiles, I never knew how much harder they are to work with than square tiling. But if I may make another suggestion, I think you should consider designing unit movement so that diagonal movement takes longer. For instance, in civ 4's system this would mean that moving a scout diagonally would cost something like 1.4 or 1.5 movement points, instead of the usual one. I always thought it was a little jarring how in early video games, moving diagonally moves you faster, and in Civ that translates to there effectively being eight cardinal directions instead of four.

 

[Sephi]

I agree. I'd also like to say that it's fair if you don't want to use hex tiles, I never knew how much harder they are to work with than square tiling. But if I may make another suggestion, I think you should consider designing unit movement so that diagonal movement takes longer. For instance, in civ 4's system this would mean that moving a scout diagonally would cost something like 1.4 or 1.5 movement points, instead of the usual one. I always thought it was a little jarring how in early video games, moving diagonally moves you faster, and in Civ that translates to there effectively being eight cardinal directions instead of four.

I use true distance for movement. So if you draw a circle around a tile, the tiles on that circle take the same time to travel to. Which equals like 1.41 or so for a single diagonal movement.

 

[Guru-Meditation]

The Laws-System looks very interesting. It also remiods me a bit of Europa Universalis, where you have similar sliders which define your Nation's inner workings.

 

[Sephi]

Interesting. Ironically the value sliders will only modify how others perceive your empire. AI leaders will have a title displayed in the scoreboard related to their highest value (similar to how good/neutral/evil is displayed currently).

Since my graphic card died I cannot post any screenshots currently, so maybe some devlog story for today. I laid out my goals for a quest system in https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/better-ai-for-xtended.658511/#post-15793804 a few years ago. Initially I tried out a system where quests were tied to followers. So you would meet potential followers randomly and they would give you a quest and if you finish that quest would become followers and you get a bonus. I tried for quite some time to get that system to work but I could never manage to make it fun. Either you would do random stuff because the reward is great or you ignore the quest because most of the time it would not fit with your strategy and doing random stuff was not worth it or didn't fit the kind of story you wanted to tell. So I put the quest mechanic on hold for a while and designed it now to be mainly a part of organizations.

There are all kinds of organizations like religous cults or merchants guilds or so on. Some of the are hidden and you need to do an event or quest to be able to contact them. For example there is a thieves cult called "The unseen coin" and only after you have some corruption in your empire will an event show up where you can contact them. Joining an organization only costs yields like gold or mana. But if you want to make progress in an organization you need to do quests for them (instead of unlocking techs like now). Each organization has 4 tiers of 6 quests each. Lower tier quests are easier and higher tiers are only unlocked once the lower tiers are all done. The really cool thing is that these quests are shared among all leaders that joined the organization. So if you do not like a particular quest just leave it to an AI or another player. To get the maximum bonuses from an organization you need to do 10 out of their 24 quests, so it is more than fine to be a bit picky when it comes to quests. Each quest does give a nice experience reward so if you like to do a lot of quest you will get rewarded for your trouble. Some quests are generic like build x buildings, get y gold, or cast z enchantments, but other quests are quite specific. One trade related quest requires you to use a trade opportunity which you only get from a caravan event. There are also quests where you have to give a city to the organization. So if you give a city to a merchant guild it will create a trade village in it's place. If you want to cheat the system you could just retake the trade village. But if you are a member of a merchant guild you probably value trade fairly high anyway and prefer to do very lucrative trade with the village. On top of it some trade quests require a trade village so if the mapscript did not give you any trade village near your starting location you can kind of spawn one yourself with a correponding quest.

 

[Zusk]

This thread is the first time I have heard of a standalone version of MoM! Is there anywhere I can follow for updates on that project, or is checking back here the best bet?

 

[Sephi]

yes, currently infos are civfanatics exclusive. Feel free to ask any questions if you have some. I will setup a steam page next year and start promoting the game on a larger scale then.

 

[Blake00]

This is a very cool project mate. I'm gonna have to keep an eye on this!

 

[Sephi]

Time to post more infos then. The techtree has become a techmap. The first one had 60, then I expanded it to 100, later 140 and now moved to 220. Unlike civ techtree you are not supposed to research everything in a standard game so I need a lot of techs to make it work.

Goals of the techmap system:

• Allow the player to decide how to advance his/her empire. You want to build an empire based on trade, mercenaries, magic, knowledge, warfare, hunting, necromancy, etc.? Focus on the areas you want to focus and ignore the rest.
• Emergent gameplay. When you start the game you will not know which techs you have researched after 100, 200, 300, etc. turns. Of course you can make a plan before the game starts, but on the higher difficulties you need to adjust to the terrain of your starting location, the leaders you will meet, etc.
• Tech choices are important macro decisions and can become "game winning moves". Instead of selecting mostly the same techs in mostly the same order every game your tech selection will decide over victory or defeat.

How the techmap works:

• There is no direction in the techmap. You can research techs in any order you like. However you can only research a tech if you already know an adjacent tech.
• Each tech is optional, you do not need it to win the game. So you have full choice what you want to research and what you do not want to reasearch.
• Each predefined lore leader starts somewhere else on the techmap. A general will start with a military tech and a trader with a gold tech etc. You can create a custom leader and select where you want to start on the techmap.
• Each tech does not have a static cost, instead the cost depends on how many techs you have already researched (civ1, civ2, alpha centauri style).
• Techs are clustered around common themes. One corner of the map is magic, another is trade or warfare etc.
• There are two types of techs: normal and epic. Epics usually unlock new units, buildings, laws(civics), etc. while normal techs give a small bonus like +10% gold from merchants
• Some techs give one-time bonuses like resources, a magic item or a free building in one of your cities.
• A lot of the basic content does not require techs to be unlocked. About 50% of the units and buildings you have access to from turn one. You only reasearch powerfull stuff that specializes your empire.
• Each civ gets it's own techmap.
• There are a few ways to "portal jump" on the tech map. The methods allow you to access far away areas on the techmap without having to research 20 techs just to get there.
  • You might encounter an inventor on a random event. If you can convince her to share her secrets you gain a random tech.
  • There are scholar villages on the map. Each of them has a tech it specialized in. If you manage to become allies with them and integrate them into your empire they will share the specialization tech with you.
  • As a leader you can pickup the Inventor talent. The talent allows you to research any 3 techs on the techmap, even if you do not meet the adjacent restrictions.

 

[Guru-Meditation]

Techmap sounds like a cool way for more leader differentiation. I like the idea.

 

[Jojo_Fr]

Very interesting idea Sephi! Thanks for your work.

 

[Sephi]

Thanks for the encouraging words friends, it is time to share some more news. I have been working hard the last month to get the game ready for early access. There is still quite a lot to be done. Couple Month atleast.

Leader Development​

The leader development system is the heart and soul of the game. You play as an upcoming leader with great potential. There are no books written yet about you but you are known enough that other leaders will recognize you. How you develop your leader, what choices you make and how history will remember you is up to you.

The leader system is inspired a lot by the fantasy show game of thrones. I liked the interactions and the dialogues between the leaders in the earlier seasons. I want to make an 4x game that is not just about painting the map or minmaxing, but where you feel that you are part of a living world and your decisions let empires rise and fall. In 4X games the player can create his orher own story and is not shakled to follow some scripted story. Characters and character development is great for storytelling and soI decided to combine the two.

Your leader will gain experience by combat, diplomacy or doing tasks for organizations. Whenever you have enough to experience to gain a new level your leader can increase an attribute, skill or select a new talent and thus will become more powerful. While the races(civs) you can play are predefined and all have their own lore and gameplay mechanics the leader mechanic provides you with full agency. There are no predefined classes, you can freely combine talents and skills. You can choose to start as a predefined leader from the lore or create a custom leader fromscratch. Your leader provides your empire with passive bonuses and the leaders skills are used in diplomacy and events.

Attributes​

There are six attributes: Strength,Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. Attributes main function is to make the effects of skills stronger.

Skills​

There are currently about 30 Skills in the game. Most skills have two functions. They provide a passivebonus effect and they can be used in diplomacy/events. Each skill is linked to an attribute and a decent attribute score is required to make good use of a skill. The intimidation skill for example is linked to charisma. Even if you have a very low charisma you can try to intimidate the archdemon but you will have to be very lucky to succeed. Basic skills like farming or intimidation are available to every leader, but most skills need to be unlocked by talents. For example the summoning skill is unlocked by the Summoner talent.

Talents​

Talents are extremly powerful and choosing your next talent is one of the most important decisions inthe game. Talents unlock skills, legendary buildings and combatabilities. Talents also make some events more likely to occur. Each Talent also has a very powerful signature ability. The Summoner talent allows to summon creatures while the Merchant talent allows you to incorporate trade villages easier into your empire.

I did not want to have a static system where the power of each skill or talent is the same every game. This often leads to some characterbuilds being a lot more viable than other builds. There are two sources of power that are created dynamically every game and make certain skills or talents more useful: jewelry and wondrous locations.

Jewelry​

You can find jewelry that provides bonuses to attributes or skills. You can wear 3 jewelry items at the same. To change your jewelry you need to perform an attunement ritual which can only be done every 20 turns.

Wondrous locations (new Uniquefeatures)​

On the map you can find special places of great power that have been neglected for a while. Many of these places are linked to a skill and if you rebuild these places you gain a bonus to the skill. For example the golden mountains will increase your mercantile skill.

Battle​

You can send your leader into battle.The leader is always attached to a special division which act as bodyguards. The leader is basically unkillable but will flee the battle if the bodyguards are destroyed or fleeing. The leader provides bonus stats and abilities to the bodyguards. If you play a more combat oriented warrior king you probably want to join every battle but as a merchant it might be better to skip some tougher battles. But even a merchant leader can be useful in battle since merchants have the bribe ability which allows them to permanently convert an enemy unit to your side if the target can be recruited as a mercenary, has low morale, is in melee range and you have enough coin to spare.

Diplomacy and events​

It is diplomacy where the leader system shines the most. To do diplomacy you use your leader skills such asintimidation, persuasion, reasoning, etc. Roleplaying are the bestwhen you have lots of options and so there are plenty of diplomaticoptions. Currently there are 35 diplomatic actions and I plan to addmore as time goes by. For most diplomatic deals you need asuccessfull skillcheck. Different diplomatic actions allow the use of different skills. So the diplomacy game of a charming merchant king is quite different from an intimidating barbarian clanchief.

Events also use the skill system. When bandits for example invade your lands you don't have to kill them.You can use different skills to deal with them. You can try to intimidate them or persuade them to attack someone else or recruit them into your army. The way it works is that if you use a skill and you fail your skillcheck after that you only have the options left to attack them or pay them gold. So you could for example specialize your leader to be really good at recruiting bandits into your army.

The world is filled with a lot of „minor nations“ like trade villages or bandit strongholds and there are a lot of interactions possible. So maybe you find a really wealthy trade village. Now you could attack them to plunder their gold and maybe later burn it down and create a city there. But positive relations with them give you gold every turn from trade and if you integrate them peacefully into your empire you get a bonus resource. So maybe you want to stay peaceful with them but still have their gold. You could try to find some bandits and persuade them to attack the wealty village. If the bandits are succussfull with their attack you can then plunder the bandit camp and take the gold from them.

 

[Sephi]

In the screenshot you can see the system in action. I started as a firemage with fairly high intelligence and constitution. Early on I put my skillpoints into fire mastery and reasoning. Fire mastery unlocks fire spells and also increases the fire damage of your units and spells. At level 11now I get 132% (11 con times 12 fire mastery) more fire damage so it is really useful. Reasoning increases my research and can be used in many diplomatic actions. At level 4 I picked the Judge talent cause I wanted to try it out. I also picked it because it unlocked the mercenary contracts skill which I put a few points into and used to hire more mercenaries. I had my empire focused on growth and did not have the infrastructure in place to build a lot of units yet so I used mercenaries instead. At level 8 I picked the Jack of all Trades talent to unlock the medicine skill. I have a wondrous location nearby which increases the medicine skill and with my very high intelligence that is extremly useful but that effect only works if I have the skill already unlocked. I did not find any good jewelry yet, only early game stuff. One ring gives +1 to hunting, another ring gives +1 reasoning and an amulet with +1 constitution. The items are procedurally generated like in diablo type games and you can find some really good stuff later on.

 

[Sephi]

Here is a teaser for the leader art. I also post a few to give you an idea what the artstyle for the leaders is going to be.

Portraits in leader selection:

 

[Sephi]

Naz the orc barbarian. Hyborem you better start running cause this time the orcs won't be on your side. Well most orc leaders aren't "evil" but you can of course still roleplay as an evil orc if you choose to.

 

[Sephi]

Myrana the merchant Queen (trader talent). She was the first leader and I used her to iterate on the character system. I wanted to make sure that the character system is deep enough that playing as a trader makes just as much fun as playing as a fighter or necromancer.

 

[Sephi]

Sangon, a bloodmage from Cruoris

 

[OzzyKP]

Excellent progress!! Thanks for the update!