The Great Modern Revolutions: An overview and occasional series

I don't know how carefully you picked the word "reactionary" here, but Edmund Burke was of no such sort. He was in favor of Catholic Emancipation, granting the petitions of the American Founding Fathers, and Polish liberation.
Like Cheezy said, I don't give a damn about what he thought about any other issue, but he was one of the very few people in Europe who were interested in toppling the Republic and restoring monarchy. That's the definition of reactionary, innit?
I don't think you can call "overthrow" and "abolishment"* the same thing.
To add to this, it's important to note that modification would be a better word. Otherwise, legally, the Constitution wouldn't make as much sense.
 
It might be too simplistic to call it a reaction to Western modernity. There were a collection of groups behind the 1979 revolution and the Islamists were really only allowed to gain control by the outbreak of the Iran-Iraq War. And in fact, their political power isn't so absolute that they've been able to get everything they wanted. On some fronts, they were forced to grant concessions, such as on women's rights. Everything is overtly conservative (at least in tone if not at all in substance in some instances), but there are still surprisingly liberal elements to be found in Iranian society.

Heck, even the Khoemini himself was not always party to the conservatives' interests. Witness the creation of the Expediency Council and his declaration before that that the state can contradict sharia if it's in the interest of the public. Such measures were meant to combat the obstructionist tendencies of the Council of Guardians at that time, which naturally had an Islamist agenda.

It's not a question of conservatism: Islamism can and does take radical and leftist forms (the most prominent Islamist leftist being [wiki]Ali Shariati[/wiki], who would probably been the leader of the Iranian Revolution if SAVAK hadn't assassinated him in '77). The point is an intellectual rebellion against the political implications of modern science, against what many regarded as the intellectual sterility of the West since it had begun to become secular. When you take liberal democracy to its logical extreme (goes the Islamist--and, not incidentally, Nietzschean--argument), you end with tolerance for the sake of tolerance, not because you think that there's a chance that any one particular theory is true, but because you believe that all overriding value systems are unknowable; the Left and Right are equally good because they are equally meaningless. Islamism is a conscious effort to posit a modern value system to shield the Muslim world against the ailment of the West: Sayyid Qutb called it corruption, Kierkegaard called it levelling, and Nietzsche called it nihilism, but whatever you call it, Islamism is an attempt to avoid it.

I don't think you can call "overthrow" and "abolishment"* the same thing.

Also, the American Revolution had a great deal of influence internationally if only through the global war it spawned.

I'll say these things:

1. The true American Revolution for Americans was in fact the Civil War; it was the point at which Southerners were forced, at gunpoint, to see themselves as American rather than Virginian or Georgian or Mississippian or Texan (OK, we may not have succeeded completely on that one). However, the American Revolution was important intellectually and politically. Politically, it's simple: the American Revolution was the primer for the giant explosion that was the French Revolution. Had the Colonies come to a peaceful conciliation with Britain or had the British decided not to fight and thus draw France into a war, I doubt that the French Revolution would have happened when it did, how it did were it not for the American Revolution. It would most likely delay it for a while. It may never even have occurred. As much as Marxists assert that liberalism was an idea whose time had come by 1789, the actual situation is rather more complex. At the end of the day, the American Revolution, combining as it did a liberal spirit and a big war between Britain and France, was the sine qua non of the Greatest Revolution of Them All.

2. The American Revolution produced vast quantities of dissertations on the application of liberal theory in its mature form to actual government. The states engaged in a great deal of constitutional experimentation (for instance, take a look at the first constitution of post-independence Pennsylvania), and The Federalist Papers are probably the most useful practical guide to liberal democratic governance in existence (despite its focus on the American Constitution as it originally stood, it's an excellent work even for non-Americans to look at). Also, Alexis de Tocqueville, fifty years later.
 
The Iranian Revolution was a rejection of the idea that the West could intervene and force their way of life upon the people of Iran. They wanted desperately to determine their own way of living and their own system of governmen, but of course, like most revolutions, it was hijacked by some strong-arm dictatorship.

It's not a question of conservatism: Islamism can and does take radical and leftist forms (the most prominent Islamist leftist being [wiki]Ali Shariati[/wiki], who would probably been the leader of the Iranian Revolution if SAVAK hadn't assassinated him in '77). The point is an intellectual rebellion against the political implications of modern science, against what many regarded as the intellectual sterility of the West since it had begun to become secular. When you take liberal democracy to its logical extreme (goes the Islamist--and, not incidentally, Nietzschean--argument), you end with tolerance for the sake of tolerance, not because you think that there's a chance that any one particular theory is true, but because you believe that all overriding value systems are unknowable; the Left and Right are equally good because they are equally meaningless. Islamism is a conscious effort to posit a modern value system to shield the Muslim world against the ailment of the West: Sayyid Qutb called it corruption, Kierkegaard called it levelling, and Nietzsche called it nihilism, but whatever you call it, Islamism is an attempt to avoid it.

I know about Islamism. I believe my point was essentially that the Iranian Revolution wasn't an entirely Islamist affair. There were some pretty liberal and pragmatic elements.
 
I know about Islamism. I believe my point was essentially that the Iranian Revolution wasn't an entirely Islamist affair. There were some pretty liberal and pragmatic elements.

That's true, but only a few revolutions are entirely a [insert ideology] affair. There were liberals and pragmatists, but when you look at the details, Islamism was by far the most popular of the ideologies, and almost certain to come out on top in some form or another.

On the other hand, it is true that Khomeini and the velayet-e faqih form of Islamism was not guaranteed to win. In fact, the most popular strain of Islamism (you probably know this, but whatever) was probably Islamic socialism, as represented by the [wiki]Mojahedin-e Khalq[/wiki] and the Shariati school. However, the Islamic socialists were disorganized and had no single charismatic figure to rally them, unlike the Khomeinists, who had a strong organizer and charismatic leader in the form of Khomeini and were able to take over the revolution through clever manipulations and control of the most violent and radical street thugs.

Iran had tried secular nationalism, and many if not most Iranians at the time were frustrated with it. Islamism was the new model; it made sense that the Iranians would go for it. Unfortunately, Khomeinism was probably not what they bargained for; a Shariatist (i.e. socialist, more democratic, and to some degree anti-clerical) Islamic Republic was probably closer to the aims of the people.
 
On the other hand, it is true that Khomeini and the velayet-e faqih form of Islamism was not guaranteed to win. In fact, the most popular strain of Islamism (you probably know this, but whatever) was probably Islamic socialism, as represented by the [wiki]Mojahedin-e Khalq[/wiki] and the Shariati school. However, the Islamic socialists were disorganized and had no single charismatic figure to rally them, unlike the Khomeinists, who had a strong organizer and charismatic leader in the form of Khomeini and were able to take over the revolution through clever manipulations and control of the most violent and radical street thugs.

Iran had tried secular nationalism, and many if not most Iranians at the time were frustrated with it. Islamism was the new model; it made sense that the Iranians would go for it. Unfortunately, Khomeinism was probably not what they bargained for; a Shariatist (i.e. socialist, more democratic, and to some degree anti-clerical) Islamic Republic was probably closer to the aims of the people.

This is what I was getting at. The Islamist banner itself consisted of diverse groups that did not share the same goals, from the Fedayeen (who were virtually Marxists) to the ulema (who were generally opposed to leftist reforms). To say that it was an Islamist revolution might be oversimplifying it even from the Islamist point of view.

And then there were the relatively liberal elements such as the National Front and those who continued to agitate for rights after Khomeini came to power. They only really lost traction in the wake of the Iran-Iraq War. So what you're saying about the velayet-e faqih as not guaranteed to win is certainly true, only that it's even more complicated than that because velayet-e faqih is not even always in line with the ulema's agenda, which, as I've mentioned, is demonstrated by Khomeini's own rebuke of and maneuvering against the Council of Guardians.
 
That's fine and well, but what I was getting at was that (1) the revolution was bound to end up Islamist in some shape or form and (2) regardless of your opinion of (1), it actually did result in the first-ever true experiment in Islamism.
 
That's fine and well, but what I was getting at was that (1) the revolution was bound to end up Islamist in some shape or form and

But that shape or form can be very different!

Lockesdonkey said:
(2) regardless of your opinion of (1), it actually did result in the first-ever true experiment in Islamism.

I have to agree, albeit it has been in many ways a rather contradictory experiment.
 
But that shape or form can be very different!
Yes, that's true. But at the end of the day, the new form is Islamic, not Western, and is based on God, not Reason. Isn't that radical?
 
It fits the literal definition:

rev⋅o⋅lu⋅tion
  /ˌrɛvəˈluʃən/
–noun
1. an overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed.

But the Americans didn't overthrow and replace the established government. They just removed themselves from its aegis. If George III had been toppled and replaced by a president, then, yes, that would have been a revolution. But both the British government and the British political system remained in place - some far-flung colonies just became independent of them. I don't think that that really meets the definition of a revolution, which means that the government itself is actually changed, not that a small group of the people governed move to recognise another government instead.
 
If you're suggesting that it was more of a secession than a revolution, then I don't see why the two cannot overlap. Otherwise quite a few so-called revolutions in history, are not; the Belgian, Irish, Greek, et al. revolutions would have to be renamed to something else.

Like Cheezy said, I don't give a damn about what he thought about any other issue, but he was one of the very few people in Europe who were interested in toppling the Republic and restoring monarchy. That's the definition of reactionary, innit?

No, because he was in favor of constitutional monarchism. By this line of thinking, anybody that is not an end-of-the-line extremist is a reactionary.

Edmund Burke was the very image of a reactionary. I'm sure you've heard of, if not read, Reflections on the Revolution in France. There's a reason Miss Wollstonecraft and Mr. Paine wrote what they did, and it was directly because of Burke's outlandish reactionary defense of the French aristocracy.

A reactionary would be a gentleman like Charles d'Artois (later Charles X of France), who was against any and all forfeiting of any social privileges of the nobility. Burke was a few levels beneath that.
 
Yes, that's true. But at the end of the day, the new form is Islamic, not Western, and is based on God, not Reason. Isn't that radical?

Yes, but is Islamic socialism really a reaction against Western modernity? It is certainly anti-imperial and against some liberal ideas, but even though it is radical I don't know if it's anti-Western, being inspired to a large extent by ideas originating from Western modernity.
 
Socialism as a coherent concept is Western (either Utopian or Scientific), but pretty much all the ideas that comprise socialism can be found in the Qur'an itself (or the Bible for that matter!), and many are backed up by Hadiths. It is ironic that most Islamic "fundamentalists" and "radicals" do not aspire to these ends, but rather merely socially conservative ones which have generally existed only on the periphery of Islam, which I think shows how well they really understand their faith.

But then, conservative Christians are generally the same way.
 
Socialism as a coherent concept is Western (either Utopian or Scientific), but pretty much all the ideas that comprise socialism can be found in the Qur'an itself (or the Bible for that matter!), and many are backed up by Hadiths. It is ironic that most Islamic "fundamentalists" and "radicals" do not aspire to these ends, but rather merely socially conservative ones which have generally existed only on the periphery of Islam, which I think shows how well they really understand their faith.

I agree that the seeds for socialist thought are planted by the Quran itself, but many Islamic socialists were very Marxist. Surely that characteristic can't be attributed to Islam itself.
 
Otherwise quite a few so-called revolutions in history, are not; the Belgian, Irish, Greek, et al. revolutions would have to be renamed to something else.
I agree, they should be. I have to say that I've never heard of the Greek War of Independence or the award of Irish Home Rule being referred to as "revolutions".
LightSpectra said:
No, because he was in favor of constitutional monarchism. By this line of thinking, anybody that is not an end-of-the-line extremist is a reactionary.
The constitutional monarchy was dead; to have reimposed it would have required counterrevolution, the province of reactionaries. I do not consider it to be "extremist" to not give a damn about the particular form of government in other states.
 
I agree that the seeds for socialist thought are planted by the Quran itself, but many Islamic socialists were very Marxist. Surely that characteristic can't be attributed to Islam itself.

No, but I'm sure it softened them up to it. I know Christianity had the effect on me, once I was able to divorce American, conservative "Christianity" from what the Bible and great Christian theologians have had to say about it :)
 
Top Bottom