The "Let's Figure Out Sicily" thread

[TheMulattoMaker]

So Absinthe mentioned that maybe we could start a brainstorming thread about the four new civs, especially Sicily. Here are some blatherings:

Start date: Either 1071 (County of Sicily) or 1130 (Kingdom of Sicily)

UU: Mouthwash suggested Norman Knights in the other thread, and I agree, although I'm not sure what bonus to give them.

UB: The only thing I've been able to dig up so far is Palazzo dei Normanni/Palatine Chapel, but there's only one of them. I haven't found anything yet about something unique to Sicily/Mezzogiorno that they built in several places.

UP: Something Crusade-related, maybe? Apparently there were Catholics, Muslims and Jews in relative harmony even while the Crusades were raging. So possibly all of their cities automatically get all three of those religions with no stability bonus.

and/or

The KoS didn't really send many of its own soldiers to the Holy Land- maybe Sicily doesn't lose any units to Crusades but gets full credit from the Pope.

and/or

It's my understanding that Sicily got filthy rich from all the crusading armies coming through Messina and other port cities, maybe they can just get a chunk of gold every time there's a Crusade.

 

[cmakk1012]

Ooh, I really like the money from Crusades idea! Maybe an extra trade route in every city when a European civ holds Jerusalem too?

For a UB, maybe something related to Sicilian Baroque architecture? It is from a much later chronological point than everything else suggested so far but it is a distinct movement unique to the nation.

As for UHVs, like I suggested in the other thread one could be about great people (since the Norman kings fostered a diverse court of luminaries) and another about conquest of North Africa; Roger II of Sicily planned on conquering Egypt and the Crusader states, and Sicily actually briefly held the Tunisian coastline. Dunno about a third one, though.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

Rough draft of a DoM text for them:

"It is the year 1071 AD. Our island has been fought over for centuries- Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, and Byzantines all envied its strategic location and its rich wheat fields. The Muslim invaders have now given way to ferocious warriors from far Northern Europe- who have come to admire our culture and our way of life. Together with the Mezzogiorno on the mainland, Sicily is finally free to rule itself.

We have arrived on the world stage at a time of upheaval. Some believe that the Norman invasion that freed us from the Muslims is just the beginning of what may become a massive campaign against the enemies of Christendom. This may provide opportunities for us- we command the very center of the Mediterranean Sea, and any navy wishing to sail from west to east must go through our waters. But of course this brings its own dangers, as we are surrounded by larger, stronger nations that may turn greedy and envious of our wealth- and we risk upsetting the uneasy balance with the Sicilian Muslims who still live here peacefully.

Roger, you must take this tiny island nation and catapult it to the forefront of history! No longer will Sicily be the pawn of great empires who wish to hoard our resources to enrich themselves. You will lead our people to dominate the Mediterranean- economically, culturally, and militarily!"

(It's too long, and I'm really not sure about that second paragraph- feel free to add/take away/revise/completely redo )

Also, a UHV idea: Constitutions of Melfi (be the first civ to switch to Constitutional Monarchy). Although that would do the same thing that was discussed here- instead of Hungary rushing Westminster Abbey, it'd be Sicily rushing Magna Carta. And I think The War of the Sicilian Vespers has got to be represented in at least one of their UHVs, probably be the opposite of what Aragon has to do.

And a (probably crappy but I'll throw it out there anyway) idea for UB: Latifundia. Maybe something to do with increasing food- replaces granary, I guess.

 

[Baron03]

This is my modified idea list for Sicily/Naples from a while back...

Kingdom of Sicily: color is the same blue from SOI's Principality of Antioch
Spawn year: 1068 (I think 1091 might be better for spawning on both places) they can spawn outside Naples/Sicily city, much like crusaders do in SOI with Antioch and Jerusalem.
Leader(s): Roger II, and Charles of Anjou
Starting stacks outside of Naples and Palermo, Sicily.
UU: Norman Knight (SOI) - replaces knight or armored lancer (+100% experience gained)
UB: Norman Chapel (SOI) - replace a church? Adds a culture bonus?
UP: Jewel of the Sea - Traded resources produce a small wealth bonus?
Or Jewel of the Sea2 - water resources produce twice as much wealth.
Or Norman Heritage1 - Have better diplomatic relations with Western Europe civs (France, England, Norway, Denmark etc. and they already have contact with them.)
Or Norman Heritage2 - Can hire any mercenary regardless of province it is located in.

Potential UHV list:
1. Have 2,000 culture by 1300?
2. Conquer Ifriqiya, Malta, Sicily, and Southern Italy by 1172?
3. Sink 15 Byzantine ships or 25 enemy ships.
4. Build one Mosque, Catholic and Orthodox Cathedral.
5. Build 25 religious buildings, i.e. churches, madrasahs, minarets, monasteries, cathedrals, houses of wisdom, mosques, reliquaries, seminaries.
6. Capture three Byzantine cities or Conquer Epirus and Arberia.
7. Have the largest score of any Mediterranean State. (Includes Byzantines, Cordoba, Arabs, Genoa, Aragon, Venice, and depends if you add any others I guess)
8. Have a larger population than other Italian civs combined.
9. Build seven harbors by 1295
10. Be the first non Islamic civ to discover Arabic Knowledge
11. Crusaders Abroad: Control every island in the Mediterranean (or have your borders cover every Mediterranean island.
12. Conquer Sicily/Southern Italy by 1204?
13. Control the largest army of any Western European civ in 1300.
14. Have 12,000 culture by 1500?

 

[The Turk]

Wouldn't Naples make more sense than Sicily? That way Sicily can be fought over, and Naples can try to conquer Sicily. The Normans can be represented as barbarians/mercenaries, and then have a formal spawn later. Hence 1282 would make more sense for a Kingdom in Naples.

Anyway the Kingdom of Sicily lasts like 100 years, before its absorbed into the HRE and various other Kingdoms (like Naples).

 

[gilgames]

For me, your suggestions tend to be similar to Norway's UHV to kill scotland. Unless we change Aragon's and Genoan's UHVs, and skip sicily/naples part or both. If we don't they will be useless. Settling a city on malta is way too pointless/useless/setback.

Get a sum of gold on crusades seems good
sinking ships too
+
4. Build one Mosque, Catholic and Orthodox Cathedral.
9. Build seven harbors by 1295

bad ideas:
Norman Heritage1 - Have better diplomatic relations with Western Europe civs (France, England, Norway, Denmark etc. and they already have contact with them.)
10. Be the first non Islamic civ to discover Arabic Knowledge
11. Crusaders Abroad: Control every island in the Mediterranean (or have your borders cover every Mediterranean island.
2. Conquer Ifriqiya, Malta, Sicily, and Southern Italy by 1172?

Starting date 1130 seems more relevant

 

[DC123456789]

Wouldn't Naples make more sense than Sicily? That way Sicily can be fought over, and Naples can try to conquer Sicily. The Normans can be represented as barbarians/mercenaries, and then have a formal spawn later. Hence 1282 would make more sense for a Kingdom in Naples.

Anyway the Kingdom of Sicily lasts like 100 years, before its absorbed into the HRE and various other Kingdoms (like Naples).

Considering that the Kingdom of Naples originated as the Angevin rump of the original Kingdom of Sicily (and was always considered one of the Kingdoms of Sicily), I think it would make sense to just consider Naples as part of the Sicilian civ.

 

[2phunkey4u]

How about a UHV goal that reflects the Norman engagement in the Crusades?
i.e. control Antioch, Edessa (and maybe even Jerusalem, Cyprus and Cilicia) in 1291 (or later). That would help with expanding the representation of the Crusader States a bit more.

 

[QManNL]

If we want Sicily to have a Crusade/SoI focus, would it be fair to have provinces such as Antioch, Edessa, Lebanon, Cyprus, Rhodes, Jerusalem, and Cilicia as border provinces? Starting from Sicily, Malta, Calabria, and Apulia, their core would be quite small. We can have Sicily represent a conglomerate of Southern Italian and Crusader cultures in the Mediterranean. Making Rhodes and Cyprus historical, perhaps even Antioch and Lebanon contested as well. My only concern is while it would be fun to have a civ that focuses on colonizing the Eastern Mediterranean with the added dimension of Knights Hospitaller and Templars, it's more historically accurate for it to be out-competed by Aragon, Venice, and Genoa. As excited as I am for a Sicilian civ I worry about how relevant it will be for the timeframe.

Kiev presented a similar issue however, since it's only historically active for about 400-500 years in the mod. It creates a challenge for the player to maintain relevance as you fight off Mongols. Perhaps the case could be similar for Sicily. Example possibilities; enhanced bonuses for the Crusading period, no caps on company units, with a free corp or two in every city etc., then significantly leveling off after about 1300. Possible UP that I'm thinking of: allows competing corporations to cooperate and gains Crusader units instead of losing them until ~1300. Instead of losing a good chunk of their standing army like other Catholic civs, they could get maybe 3-4 free units when each Crusade is triggered, whether they were voted for it or not. It gives players the chance to ferry their units over to the Levant themselves and experience the Crusades more vicariously, while still allowing the AI to select a crusading country randomly. After the grueling task of conquering the Levant and Cyprus (and possibly Rhodes), the challenge for the player then would be maintaining their Eastern Mediterranean holdings as the kingdom loses relevance. As for the AI, the difference between Sicily and Kiev is that Sicily will just be sitting there waiting to be conquered by other European powers while Kiev exploded into a mess of independent cities.

I'm not sure yet about UU or UB either but I agree with SoI's Norman Knight and Norman Chapel. I'm thinking Norman Chapel could replace Pagan Temple since it doesn't seem right to me to replace Churches with it. It could utilize a similar effect to SoI as well (no instability from Orthodoxy, Islam).

 

[cmakk1012]

I think it would be really, really interesting to have a European civ with Middle Eastern interests beyond one French UHV goal. How could Sicily's historical decline be modeled in a way that challenges the player but that can be overcome? Should Aragon be buffed as a rival?

 

[Force44]

Another iteration of the bonus related to crusades for Naples-Sicily.
(I like the previously mentioned ideas)

UB: allow boats to participate in the crusades.
every donated ship gives gold in addition to faith and gg-points.

UHV: ferry of the crusaders
- contribute 50 ships to the crusades.

 

[DC123456789]

Wouldn't that be more appropriate for Venice and Genoa though?

 

[The Turk]

Considering that the Kingdom of Naples originated as the Angevin rump of the original Kingdom of Sicily (and was always considered one of the Kingdoms of Sicily), I think it would make sense to just consider Naples as part of the Sicilian civ.

Ya, so is the Kingdom of England, being the rump state of a Norman-French based Kingdom. Further, Sicily will be fought over by various civs. It makes no sense to have a whole civ be based in Sicily, when we want it to be contested by various civilizations. Between Arabs, Germans, Iberians, French, Sicily should be a space of contestation.

Naples lasted much longer as an independent political base. Sicily lasts only a century or so. Naples lasts till the end of the game. Again, it makes no sense to have Sicily.

 

[Force44]

Another iteration of the bonus related to crusades for Naples-Sicily.
(I like the previously mentioned ideas)

UB: allow boats to participate in the crusades.
every donated ship gives gold in addition to faith and gg-points.

UHV: ferry of the crusaders
- contribute 50 ships to the crusades.

Wouldn't that be more appropriate for Venice and Genoa though?

I dunno? Maybe? Sure?

Is it unappropriate ?

I thought of it as a way for the player to actively dump production into achieving a UHV.

I imagine the production of ships as renting out harbor space.
It is not perfect, but allowing the production of multiple harbors in one city and have those buildings participate in the crusades seemed a tad bit outrageous to me gameplaywise to actively simulate their involvement in and getting filthy rich from the crusades.

 

[DC123456789]

Ya, so is the Kingdom of England, being the rump state of a Norman-French based Kingdom. Further, Sicily will be fought over by various civs. It makes no sense to have a whole civ be based in Sicily, when we want it to be contested by various civilizations. Between Arabs, Germans, Iberians, French, Sicily should be a space of contestation.

Naples lasted much longer as an independent political base. Sicily lasts only a century or so. Naples lasts till the end of the game. Again, it makes no sense to have Sicily.

England represents the entirety of the Norman/Angevin kingdom as well. I don't understand why you think there has to be a dichotomy between either representing the Norman Kingdom of Sicily or the later Kingdom of Naples - it makes perfect sense within the context of an RFC mod to have one civ represent both.

I dunno? Maybe? Sure?

Is it unappropriate ?

I thought of it as a way for the player to actively dump production into achieving a UHV.

I imagine the production of ships as renting out harbor space.
It is not perfect, but allowing the production of multiple harbors in one city and have those buildings participate in the crusades seemed a tad bit outrageous to me gameplaywise to actively simulate their involvement in and getting filthy rich from the crusades.

Historically IIRC the Italian merchant republics provided much of the naval transport for the Crusades, including famously at the Fourth Crusade where the Crusaders agreed to help Venice attack Zadar and Constantinople because they couldn't otherwise pay for their ships.

 

[The Turk]

England represents the entirety of the Norman/Angevin kingdom as well. I don't understand why you think there has to be a dichotomy between either representing the Norman Kingdom of Sicily or the later Kingdom of Naples - it makes perfect sense within the context of an RFC mod to have one civ represent both.

I'm not saying have two civs, I'm saying have one: Naples. Naples lasted longer, and was less contested (in this game) than Sicily was. We should keep Sicily open to invasion and conquest by various powers.

In fact I question the whole idea of having a South Italian civilization. The area was passed around by so many different civilizations between 500-1800, it was only very briefly independent during this time period. It really makes very little sense adding a civilization in that area. I'd much rather see an independent Milan, than an independent Naples or Sicily. But in truth, all of them can be represented accurately with city-states.

If we want to add more city-states, that sounds like a good idea. Alternatively, if we MUST have one new civ in Italy, than Naples makes by far the most sense both historically and gameplay wise. The brief adventuring Norman dynasty, is simply too insignificant, given that we are already jamming 3 Egyptian dynasties into one civ.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The Sicily civ I meant definitely encompasses both Sicilies.
While officially Sicily+Naples were only called as the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in the 19th century, unofficially they were called as the Two Sicilies much-much earlier.
Norman Sicily controlled southern Italy too for ~150 years, and even after the two kingdoms got split, both called themselves the Kingdom of Sicily.
So Naples is a very significant part of the proposed RFCE civ - maybe even a bigger part than the Island of Sicily.

In fact I question the whole idea of having a South Italian civilization.

Actually it was edead's suggestion/request to add Sicily to the mod at one point. I would even add it out of sheer respect to him.

If we want to add more city-states, that sounds like a good idea. Alternatively, if we MUST have one new civ in Italy, than Naples makes by far the most sense both historically and gameplay wise. The brief adventuring Norman dynasty, is simply too insignificant, given that we are already jamming 3 Egyptian dynasties into one civ.

Why would it be worse if it's a full civ instead of a couple strong city states? I think it only has benefits even when playing against it if it's a more united civ, which can be vassalized.
I don't really get it why do you think it would only represent the Norman dynasty. It doesn't work that way for any of the civs. Just look at Morocco.
Here we are "jamming" the various kingdoms in Sicily and southern Italy into one civ, with the name of the civ being Sicily is kinda given.

 

[The Turk]

First off in terms of definition: Sicily: Island of Sicily, Naples: Southern Italy (boot) - not including island of Sicily.

Because the region passed hands so often, that is why city-states are fine. With such high autonomy anyways, making it a civilization doesn't make much sense.

However if you must add a civ there, have it centered around Naples, in the 13th century, as I stated above. The Normans arrive for too short a time, and can be represented by barbarians (like the Vikings). But again, outside of brief, chaotic Norman rule, Sicily and Naples fell under foreign rule. Between Egyptians, Aragonese, Byzantines, French the area is full.

Sicily is just too contested, and was the political base of one civilization for too short a time.

 

[DC123456789]

Are you aware that the Kingdom of Sicily was always considered to include the area that became known as the Kingdom of Naples (but was always considered one of the Kingdoms of Sicily after its partition)? That's what the Sicilian civ refers to, not just the island.

 

[SanJose]

Needs late UHV associated with Anju-Sicilian house or the Anjouian dynasty of the Capetians.