The Music Thread

[Steb]

This is a thread for suggesting and discussing improvements to the game's soundtrack and diplomacy music.

From my post in the suggestions thread:

The most obvious instance to me is Macdonald and Trudeau, which for some reason use the Viking diplomusic. Not only is it un-Canadian, it is also rather unpleasant to the ear. (Isn't it?) I suggest replacing it with the Canadian national anthem, of which there is a rather good (and public domain) version here.

Speaking of the Viking diplomusic, I think it is also inappropriate for later Scandinavian leaders (Gustav Vasa and Gerhardsen). I suggest replacing it with the praeludium from Grieg's Holberg Suite (first 2:30 or 2:40 of the complete suite, depending on the recording; ignore the recorder ensemble version, it's rather weird).

There are a couple more things I would change in the diplomacy music, but I want to move on to my main suggestion: Add a new soundtrack for the Global Era. As of now, both the Global and the Digital Eras use the same original Civ IV soundtrack made of John Adams' minimalist music (which I love, by the way). However, this music has a futuristic feel to it that doesn't quite fit the early 20th century; moreover, Adams composed it mostly in the 1970s-80s, which would correspond to the early Digital Era. I also think that changes in soundtrack are the most salient way in which the game indicates passage to a new age (provided you play with sound on), and considering that the Global and Digital era lack aesthetic differences in general, music would be a good distinguishing feature.

I propose that we create a new soundtrack using music by post-Romantic classical composers from the early 20th century. One issue is copyright status, as some of the composers that would be worthy of inclusion are off-limits due to dying after 1947. But that leaves quite a few who did die early enough. I'm thinking Debussy, Ravel, Gershwin, Respighi, Satie, Bartók, Rachmaninoff, Holst.

I've been looking into finding copyright-free tracks of music by these composers that would work well as soundtrack. I'll post the results as I go, and feel free to do the same. When we reach a satisfying set of tracks (currently each era has 14-20 tracks) I can make a pull request to merge into the mod.

We can also discuss other changes to the soundtrack. My own preference is to be conservative and keep most of the soundtrack as is for the other eras, to stay true to the theme of classical music changing through the ages. If we decide to open the selection to any genre, this would open a big can of worms (more difficult selection and more possibilities for disagreement). And anyway, people can also just listen to their own music while playing! But that's only an opinion.

The other goal is to improve the diplomacy music in cases where it's seriously lacking, like for the Canadian and Viking leaders.

To keep in mind: both the original composition and the interpretation must be copyright-free (public domain or some creative commons license—though where do we credit these if need be?). Composers are in the public domain in most countries if they died before 1947. (So no Shostakovich.)

 

[Steb]

A few first suggestions for the Global era:

- Debussy's La Mer, first and second movements (the third is perhaps too intense for a soundtrack)
- Satie's Gymnopédie 1, possibly 2 and 3 too
- Holst's Mars, the bringer of war from the Planets suite, and/or some others from the suite

EDIT: added links

 

[Leoreth]

Please also include link to youtube videos or similar sources so I (and everyone else participating in the discussion) can judge suggested pieces they don't know.

I know Gymnopédie and everything from Debussy so that's great, no idea about Holst though.

 

[Charriu]

Well if you bring up Holst you could also include Jupiter, also from the Planets:

And here is Mars

 

[Steb]

Yes sorry, I wrote the 2nd post in a rush and had to leave and forgot about the links. They're there now.

 

[Publicola]

While working with RFC: Europe, I compiled a playlist with all the tracks included in that mod. If there's any interest in expanding the soundtrack for other eras (or adjusting the soundtrack so each civ gets one or a few 'special tracks' just for them), these might be good for the Medieval Era, as well as any European and/or Near Eastern civs.

Here's the RFCE soundtrack playlist.

Also, here's the full Civ IV Medieval soundtrack, including medieval tracks from this mod, plus RFCE and 'Sword of Islam'.

 

[AtlantaMarty]

@Leoreth and @Steb

Here are my suggestions
1. The Global Age should have at least 1 Sousa song, given how important he was in that era. Here's my suggestion.

2. Industrial and Global age Asian civs should have their own soundtrack that is distinct both from contemporary Western soundtracks and their Classical/Medieval/Renaissance soundtrack. Here are some suggestions

3. Industrial and Global Age European civs should also play some Romantic Arias

What do you guys think?

 

[Leoreth]

No singing. I also don't think marches suit the mood of the game or are generally suitable as background music.

 

[AtlantaMarty]

No singing. I also don't think marches suit the mood of the game or are generally suitable as background music.

If I could find instrumental versions of arias, would you be interested?
Also, how about playing marches as background music during wartime only?

 

[Leoreth]

Not how the soundtrack works. Before contributing, please try to understand how the game is currently scored instead of just suggesting things you like.

 

[Steb]

What copyright laws do we need to follow? I'm reading a bit more on copyright law and it's complicated (of course it is). It seems that nothing published after 1923 is public domain in the United States, save for specific cases where the copyright wasn't renewed. On the other hand, everything published before 1923 is public domain in the US, irrespective of author's death. The publication date is mostly irrelevant in other countries, where all that matters is author's death—works enter the public domain 50 years after death in Canada and some Asian countries, and 70 years after death in most of Europe.

If we need to make sure compositions are in the public domain for all countries, it might limit us to both pre-1923 publication and pre-1947 death for everything (regrettably, this excludes most of Gershwin)

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

I'm pretty sure there are already some soundtracks from Civ5 in this mod, so we are already breaking copyright. I say we completely ignore any such considerations and just pick what fits.

 

[Leoreth]

I'd say let's ignore it for now, I can still make the decision on what I am comfortable to include later.

 

[hnrysml]

Would it change anything related to copyright if the mod was officially for education purposes...

 

[Steb]

All right then, maybe I worry too much about these things.

I've been wondering about including Ravel's Boléro. Very well known, and rather soundtrack-y, but I'm not sure the crescendo structure makes it appropriate. It's rather explosive towards the end.

 

[Leoreth]

I'm a bit ambivalent towards full orchestra pieces in general. The current soundtrack mostly consists of solo pieces or small ensembles. I think pieces like this are more suitable because they are in general more subdued and less distracting. Especially full orchestra music in that time period tended toward bombast that is too overwhelming to work for background music. For example, Wagner is definitely an influential and representative composer for his time period but way too much for the purposes of the game.

 

[Steb]

Isn't the Industrial era soundtrack exclusively fully orchestral? I agree, though, that orchestral works can be overwhelming, and this seems to be true of much early 20th century music.

Ravel's Boléro's, which doesn't have the full orchestra for like the first 75% of it and would make a good soundtrack, is kind of ruined for our purpose because of the last 25%.

 

[DC123456789]

I guess you could try cutting out the end? I haven't listened to it for a while though, so I'm not sure how well exactly that would work.

 

[Alexius08]

If we can't find public domain renditions of public domain compositions, would a computer-generated version (made with Synthesia or other similar programs) be an acceptable substitute?

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Do not add Bolero. Just don't. Some people speculated that Ravel was going insane as he was writing it. It's not appropriate for civ.

I think for Modern/Global/Digital Era we could maybe add some French impressionist stuff? AKA stuff by Ravel that isn't Bolero. His String Quartet is great. Depending on copyright infringement, we could add some Messiaen, like the Quartet for the end of Time. If we want to be super edgy, we could use some twelvetone music. In particular, I'm a fan of Berg. I'll edit in some Youtube links in a bit.

Also I'd be interested in splitting the Medieval era into two different musical eras if that's possible, splitting between actual Medieval music for the first half and Renaissance music for the second half (they're kinda lumped together right now). We could do the same for "renaissance era" and baroque/classical eras. If we do that I have suggestions for extra medieval/renaissance music (it's pretty easy to find extra baroque/classical music).

I also know several cool contemporary composers who I can try to get permission for their music. Or we can just add more Adams (Phrygian Gates and Hallelujah Junction are great).

Edits:
Schoenberg:

Berg:

Messiaen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeSVu1zbF94
Adams: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7r8XV1bylY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QousEWzwsmk