The new diplomacy

[kaltorak]

Ok, it's just one game. But a discourgaing one.
Yes, I can see some info now. But the reasons are still unacceptable.

1. I meet germany at about turn 20. 4 turns later he comes insulting me. I say "whaaat... ok now I got an info tooltip, lets check".
Bismark HOSTILE because "They covet lands that you currently own!"
But.... I haven't expanded yet.... The game has just begun and I have a size 3 capital with no radius at all. I don't even know where they are. So I explore, and after some turns I find Berlin miles away.
Later in the game I expanded in the oposite direction to see if they became pleased, and nope, miles away, me having done anything, and they hostile because I'm too close.

2. I meet babylon. I capture a worker from barbs and gift it back. Let me check, still neutral. I capture another worker from barbs and gift it back. Check again, neutral.
I mean, 2 workers this early in the game which could be mine, are a pretty big sacrifice, but whatever they are still neutral at least... what... hostile???!!!
Let me check... They are hostile because you are following the same victory they are.
But.. but .. but... I have 1 city size 3 and an archer.... How the hell can they be mad because of my victory condition!!!!!

3. I meet gengis khan. Omg, and now this brutal beast, he is going to want my blood even more than the other too.... what, friendly?????? I haven't done anything, let me check the reason.
Reason: "he seeks your friendship"
.... what a reason is that?? That is how it feels about me, not the reason for it.


I repeat, it's just one game, and since games shouldn't be the same, I won't say yet that the new diplomacy still sucks.
But for now this new tooltip just shows me why diplo was broken and totally random in civ5

I only took pics of the first point, later I was lazy.

Too close? where the hell is germany


Ah there, far enough imo, and I haven't done anything in that direction.

 

[Louis XXIV]

There might be a good deal of randomness in it, I can't say. If it helps, I had none of those problems. I ended up getting into an alliance with Russia, Spain, America, and the Inca with no hostilities directed against me (so I decided to be a dick and direct my hostility against France just for the hell of it).

 

[Dralix]

1) Bismark didn't say you were too close. He said he wants your land.
2) Nebuchadnezzar didn't say you were too powerful. He said he thinks you're following the same victory path as him.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Bismark I have no problem with. But I can't see anyone having a clue what victory path you have that early.

That being said, once it becomes clear you're following different paths, maybe he'll lighten up.

 

[Dralix]

You're probably right, but given that it was Babylon, my guess it's related to tech levels. Last night, playing as Babylon, I was neck and neck with Ottomans in tech and had the same thing. Not sure how early it started though.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Could also be related to buildings (maybe Walls of Babylon).

 

[cccv]

It looks like you have iron, which is probably the reason Biz desires your land.

And yeah, it is kind of ridiculous that victory condition penalties apply that early (if it were me playing I wouldn't even know which condition I was after at that point, how could the game?). Or ever, really. I guess it kind of makes sense for relations to take a hit if, say, two nations are in a space race with each other. But in the context of the game and their "AI wants to win" philosophy, victory is victory. It makes as much sense to have all relations have a negative because "you're trying to win the game."

 

[neptune2000]

Most likely the ai checks for similarities with you to determine which victory you're going for, and since the game is so young you're very similar. Hence, same victory condition.

The stupid thing is that it looks as if the ai is always checking for this. This shouldn't happen until enough turns have passed for there to be differentiation. Even then, it should additional look for signs that you're not pursuing a different path to strengthen the probability that you are pursuing its path. For example, similar tech (until the modern age) doesn't alone mean you're pursuing a science victory.

Edit: Even in the modern age similar tech alone doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

[CivFanaticMan]

1) Bismark didn't say you were too close. He said he wants your land.
2) Nebuchadnezzar didn't say you were too powerful. He said he thinks you're following the same victory path as him.

This needs to be changed! The AI hating you for going the same victory??? That takes away so much depth.

 

[Ahriman]

This needs to be changed! The AI hating you for going the same victory??? That takes away so much depth.

I think it makes sense, in the late-game. A civ pursuing the space race should be annoyed at others that might beat them - and more likely to conflict. Similarly for other victory conditions - if an AI is trying to buy up city states, then it should be annoyed if you're doing the same, and should be more likely to conflict with you.

In the early game, not so much.

 

[The_J]

1. I meet germany at about turn 20. 4 turns later he comes insulting me. I say "whaaat... ok now I got an info tooltip, lets check".
Bismark HOSTILE because "They covet lands that you currently own!"
But.... I haven't expanded yet.... The game has just begun and I have a size 3 capital with no radius at all. I don't even know where they are. So I explore, and after some turns I find Berlin miles away.

The AI is screwed at that point.
It consideres everything which either one of their cities or one of their units (so also the scouts) can see as "their land".

 

[darreljnz]

1. I meet germany at about turn 20. 4 turns later he comes insulting me. I say "whaaat... ok now I got an info tooltip, lets check".
Bismark HOSTILE because "They covet lands that you currently own!"
But.... I haven't expanded yet.... The game has just begun and I have a size 3 capital with no radius at all. I don't even know where they are.

To be fair - as a non-AI player this is my opinion of most AI's (i.e doesn't matter where you are or how big you are - I want your land).

 

[Surgeon]

Bismark and the mongols makes sense. Sometimes they just want your land that your capital is on, sometimes they just want to be friends.

The Babylon victory condition thing is coming in a bit early! This would easily confuse players.

 

[Buccaneer]

Why shouldn't there be some randomness? What if it was predictable every time? You don't act predictable towards the AI, do you?

 

[Pouakai]

I do like in the new diplomacy how, if there is a common enemy, you can have a four-way alliance or whatever. I was playing as Genghis, with Elizabeth, Harun, Catherine and Askia on my island. Elizabeth was being a pain, and I denounced her. Then other civs asked me for friendship declarations, and denounced her, while declaring friendship with each other, forging a masisve alliance.

 

[charon2112]

I'm not crazy about randomness is the AI's behavior, but there are definitely some cool things happening with the new diplomacy. For instance, after I made a declaration of friendship with the Iroquois, I received this message from Germany..."Being on such good terms, I couldn't help but notice that you've become friends with the Iroquois. I have done the same. Perhaps this makeshift alliance will lead to great things in the future?" Now that's cool. If, down the road, he declares war on me for no reason, I'll be pissed. But for now, this kind of diplo stuff seems fun and was missing in civ V pre-patch.

 

[Sonereal]

I'm not crazy about randomness is the AI's behavior, but there are definitely some cool things happening with the new diplomacy. For instance, after I made a declaration of friendship with the Iroquois, I received this message from Germany..."Being on such good terms, I couldn't help but notice that you've become friends with the Iroquois. I have done the same. Perhaps this makeshift alliance will lead to great things in the future?" Now that's cool. If, down the road, he declares war on me for no reason, I'll be pissed. But for now, this kind of diplo stuff seems fun and was missing in civ V pre-patch.

As far as I know, this patch could be called the "Sanity" patch in regards to Diplomacy AI. Playing a WW1 scenario, I've noticed that no runaway AI has emerged and there are less wars in general. The AI is smarter about troop placement.

The war being fought now between Russia and Japan are at a standstill but Japan is slowly gaining an edge. I'm actually signing defensive pacts for the first time!

I'm surprised how simple something like knowing, in words, if the AI is "neutral" or "guarded" has affected gameplay for the better. It makes noticing the mass buildup on the US-Mexico border so much easier and rational because I know why Mexico is agitated.

 

[Buccaneer]

This brings to mind all of the debates we had pre-release and those saying that the proposed diplomacy model would not be a good thing. Infuriating to think all of the effort 2K went to defend and hype such a thing when they really didn't know what they were talking about. I'm gald they finally listened to the testers and made the turn-around.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Diplomacy isn't as simple as we were (sic-v0621) always led to believe - even in reality.

Thus.. why i think newly added interactive details are a huge step for these men & a small hint of better variable pacts & declarations yet to come.
-- Neil Armstrong, while on the edge of Bismark borders in a CiV(v1135) game.

Who says war has to be predictable?!

 

[Islet]

They are hostile because you are following the same victory they are.

Personally, I think that this info should be left out. Feels like the AI is playing a game rather than simulating the building of a civilization.

When I play a game, I like to pretend to be whatever leader I chose: Augustus, Isabella whatever, building my very own civilization. Yes, as a human player, I like objectives to be reached in a game: Space, Dominion, just so that I can end one session feeling accomplished.

But the AI should be designed to suck the player into a game world, not pretend he is in the real world competing with you, I go to Multiplayer for that, keep it out of Singleplayer please.

Just my 2 cents!