[NFP] The new Diplomatic Quarter District

[bengalryan9]

I know it's early and we still don't have all the details about it, but it's never to early for discussion.

Where (and when) do you think you should build your Diplomatic Quarter district?

On one hand, it seems like you'd want to build it in your capital which in my experience is usually (but not always) the main target of enemy spies. On the other hand, if it's going to take up a district slot is it worth sacrificing what you might normally build there instead?

Do you hold off on building it until a bit later in the game so that you can figure out where it might be most beneficial? Or do you try to build it as early as possible in order to reap the benefits from your envoys, delegations, and embassies as soon as possible?

Curious to read what others might be thinking so far.

EDIT: Here's what we know so far, btw.

Diplomatic Quarter – Grants Diplomatic Favour from Delegations and Embassies, +1 Envoy if built next to the City Centre, Spies have reduced effectiveness on this and adjacent districts, can only build one per empire.

Buildings:
Consulate: +Influence Points per turn, reduces spies effectiveness in this city and cities with Encampments
Chancery: +Influence Points per turn, bonus science when you capture/kill an enemy spy

Note: Envoy bonuses are now tied to the Diplomatic Quarter’s buildings

 

[wesplaysciv]

For me, between the first two cities one might be more production oriented and one might be more science / culture oriented. I think Pingala and the Diplo district in the latter, and Magnus and the Govt Plaza in the other? (Until space project then get Pingala over with his promo).

 

[Amrunril]

I'm not sure we know enough about the mechanics to have a good sense of this yet. First of all, the base yield is stated as culture from delegations in the narration but diplomatic favor from delegations in the tooltip (as well as spy defense, but that won't be an issue in the early game). A lot is also going to depend on exactly envoy bonuses have been changed.

 

[bengalryan9]

For me, between the first two cities one might be more production oriented and one might be more science / culture oriented. I think Pingala and the Diplo district in the latter, and Magnus and the Govt Plaza in the other? (Until space project then get Pingala over with his promo).

I lean towards putting the diplomatic quarter in my capital with Pingala as well, but that could mean delaying a theater square or other districts. Coupling the diplomatic quarter with his grants promotion probably isn't ideal, either (assuming it grants no great people points).

I agree with you about not building it in the same city as the Government Plaza.

I'm not sure we know enough about the mechanics to have a good sense of this yet. First of all, the base yield is stated as culture from delegations in the narration but diplomatic favor from delegations in the tooltip (as well as spy defense, but that won't be an issue in the early game). A lot is also going to depend on exactly envoy bonuses have been changes.

For sure. I just figured a little theoretical discussion in the meantime wasn't going to hurt anyone.

 

[fy00sh]

I'm wondering if embassies will now reveal a players DQ if they have one instead of their capital - if so, a properly placed DQ could further help against enemy spies if you can chose to forgo the envoy from city center adjacency to make it so that receiving an embassy doesn't give the sender visibility of another city to send a spy to.

 

[Amrunril]

For sure. I just figured a little theoretical discussion in the meantime wasn't going to hurt anyone.

Very true.

If the yield from delegations is culture, that's pretty easy to compare with existing adjacencies, with the major caveat that it doesn't provide any great person points. I think it would take an unusual number of delegations for that to stack up favorably with current options in the early game.

If it's diplomatic favor, that's much harder to evaluate. If you're one of only a few civs to build this, it could give you a lot of influence over the first couple WC votes, but there's no way of knowing in advance how valuable that would be. Selling the favor for gold could also be a powerful (debatably exploitive) option in single player.

The district probably becomes more attractive once the buildings, with their envoy bonuses, however those work, come into play. This is probably where there's the most uncertainty about mechanics, but I'd guess this will generally pull the Diplomatic Quarter ahead of most standard districts (though maybe not if you have specific plans to use them for wonders, great people, etc.). I doubt it will have the same potential to plan empire-wide strategies around it as the Government Plaza buildings though, so I suspect these will be higher priority if you've made them part of your strategy.

Of course, this is all assuming the Diplomatic Quarter is available in the earlyish game. It's entirely plausible it might not appear until the Medieval era or something, in which case I'd likely want to build it soon after it became available.

I'm wondering if embassies will now reveal a players DQ if they have one instead of their capital - if so, a properly placed DQ could further help against enemy spies if you can chose to forgo the envoy from city center adjacency to make it so that receiving an embassy doesn't give the sender visibility of another city to send a spy to.

This is a cool idea, though I'd be pleasantly surprised if the developers thought to implement it.

 

[lotrmith]

For the record I hate the idea of another single instance district... the government plaza is already so important (a must-have) that not only do you know you and everybody else is going to build one (limited diversity), but as you said it competes with your district cap (I don't know that they should). And you have to hard build the buildings, which again sways it towards your capital or 1st/2nd expo.

 

[JesseS]

To me, there are 2 main questions that will determine how the diplomatic quarter changes rebalance the game.

1) When are the district and buildings unlocked?
Thematically, Early Empire seems like a natural spot for the district to be unlocked, while I'd guess that the buildings are unlocked at Civil Service and Diplomatic Service. Early Empire is where you already unlock open borders and would set up the diplomatic quarter as a counter-point to the government plaza. You'd have to balance prioritizing the government plaza for early development vs the diplo quarter to get benefits from city states. On quick speed, the cost of the consulate (400 gold) is more than the market/lighthouse, suggesting an early medieval civic (i.e. Civil Service), while the chancery (775 gold) is equal to the bank and shipyard, strongly suggesting an early renaissance civic (i.e. Diplomatic Service).

2) How are they are going to rebalance city state envoy bonuses? I think there are three possibilities:

• First, and most likely IMO, the flat, per-building envoy bonuses still apply to every city, but you need the diplomatic quarter to get the 1 envoy bonus, the consulate to get the 3 envoy bonus and chancery to get the 6 envoy bonus. This wouldn't dramatically change the game, though it would nerf the benefits of first meets in the early game. You'd probably just want to build the quarter ASAP, if you have any city state envoys. If you're planning on a space race, you'd ideally place it near future commercial hubs, industrial zones, and spaceports for spy protection. District placement probably wouldn't matter too much for other victory types, though you might as well put some commercial hubs next to it. Theater squares too, if Firaxis gets around to fixing the great work theft bug.
• Second, they shift into a percentage-based bonus from cities for the city with the Diplomatic Quarter district, so it would work like a mini-Kilwa (like +5 or 10% to the appropriate yield for the city if you have 3 envoys and the tier 1 district building; +10 or 15% if you have 6 envoys and the tier 2 building). This would point you towards building the Diplomatic Quarter in a tall Pingala city, while building the Government Plaza in the middle of a cluster of 2 or 3 cities.
• Third, the existing flat building bonuses just get applied to the city with the diplomatic quarter. This would be a serious nerf to city states and you'll probably be best off conquering or ignoring all of them except for those with powerful suzerainty bonuses.

I would bet that the narration, rather than the tooltip, was incorrect and the base yield is diplomatic favor. It is a diplomatic quarter, after all.

 

[Kwami]

For the record I hate the idea of another single instance district... the government plaza is already so important (a must-have) that not only do you know you and everybody else is going to build one (limited diversity), but as you said it competes with your district cap (I don't know that they should). And you have to hard build the buildings, which again sways it towards your capital or 1st/2nd expo.

Well, the DQ buildings were purchased in the video. So, at least it's different from the Plaza in that way.

 

[Lord Lakely]

one thing which strikes me as odd is that the devs are CONVINCED the DQ and its envoy bonuses are so OP that they *had* to nerf envoy bonuses outright.

Which... um lol? Have they never seen the AI take a city state before? They do it all the time!! CS Diplomacy isn't that strong most of the time.

Pretty fun that it nerfs Espionage a bit (NO MORE PARTIZANS!! ENOUGH ALREADY) but hopefully it doesn't destroy the incentive to build and use spies.

Overall, I'm sceptical about this new district and its uses in the game. Making Dip Victory easier to obtain is the least of this game's worries.

 

[UWHabs]

Until we know the full effect of envoys, hard to say where it makes sense. I think most likely I am going to want to use it as an anti-spy district, so it's ideally going next to my main commerce hub/industrial zone. Since it looks like you can buy the buildings, I'm not too concerned about production.

Another consideration though is if they give it the same bonus to internal trade routes that the government plaza has, If I have a game where I go heavy-internal trade routes, throwing it and the GP together might make for some mighty routes.

My gut says it's not going to be available too early, so in that case it might just end up in whatever city has a free district slot at the time. If it is, though, then I do wonder how early it would make sense to prioritize. I feel governor titles are still going to be more valuable, so I still feel like I'll go for the government plaza earlier than the diplo quarter most of the time.

 

[Amrunril]

one thing which strikes me as odd is that the devs are CONVINCED the DQ and its envoy bonuses are so OP that they *had* to nerf envoy bonuses outright.

Which... um lol? Have they never seen the AI take a city state before? They do it all the time!! CS Diplomacy isn't that strong most of the time.

Pretty fun that it nerfs Espionage a bit (NO MORE PARTIZANS!! ENOUGH ALREADY) but hopefully it doesn't destroy the incentive to build and use spies.

Overall, I'm sceptical about this new district and its uses in the game. Making Dip Victory easier to obtain is the least of this game's worries.

I don't know what the devs were thinking, but a change to envoy bonuses is certainly welcome. It's not that the bonuses are, or would be OP themselves. It's that they're strong in a specific way that helps make wide play and district spamming overpowered.

Of course, whether this specific change helps will depend on exactly how it works. If it's the first option in @JesseS 's breakdown, then the fundamental dynamic hasn't actually changed, there's just an extra level of gating to slow things down. If it's the third option, that eliminates this issue, but at the cost of a probably unnecessary nerf to city states.The second option, or perhaps some variant thereof (perhaps a smaller percentage boost applied to all cities) might be the best resolution, but the evidence we've seen so far doesn't seem to line up with it as well as with options 1 and 3.

Regarding diplomatic victory, this might actually make it a bit harder to obtain (assuming it does actually give diplomatic favor). Since diplomatic favor has diminishing marginal returns in voting, giving everyone an extra source of diplomatic favor would decrease the relative advantage of a player already doing well in this regard.

 

[Kwami]

I don't know what the devs were thinking, but a change to envoy bonuses is certainly welcome. It's not that the bonuses are, or would be OP themselves. It's that they're strong in a specific way that helps make wide play and district spamming overpowered.

I don't understand what this means. Overpowered compared to what? Not building districts? Not making cities? Why would that be a good strategy? Of course, more districts is better. That remains true even if you eliminate all city-states from the game. Removing (or significantly reducing) the envoy bonuses to districts just makes the game take longer without adding any fun or difficulty. Further, it makes every game feel a bit more samey. No more lucky first meets to change your opening plays, no more excitement at seeing 2-3 cultural city-states in your culture game and rushing to build Kilwa. Just... +4 culture. Boring.

 

[King of Prussia]

The bonuses it applies and the things it has an impact on are mid game stuff at the earliest. To me, it doesn't sound like a district to build asap. You can wait until you have embassies, and spying in general isn't that big of an issue until later on.

The envoy change is the biggest change. then again, i find you aren't generally swimming in envoys in the early game. The boosts to buildings in the early game would only effect tier 1 buildings. It also loses some of it's appeal if the CS are being wiped out. You also have to consider how many buildings are actually being boosted. In the mid to late game, you will have a lot of districts built up. In the early game, not so much.

 

[_hero_]

Since I tend to actively sell diplomatic favor in the early game to the AI, I am inclined to build it early.

 

[Revanchist]

I like that delegations have more influence. Now it isn’t just a button you click to gain visibility - it has more nuance and you need to think about whether sending a delegation is a good idea. This is the kind of deepening of mechanics I was looking for, but I want more. Another building for the district wouls have been nice, and I am still waiting for a city district

Assuming I am guessing correctly, this also makes starts more fair if you consider that meeting industrial city states is a big bonus

 

[tiamats4esgares]

This is not what diplomacy victory needed, if they're trying to "spice things up". They just made an already-easy victory type even easier in the late game. Meh.

 

[JesseS]

The bonuses it applies and the things it has an impact on are mid game stuff at the earliest. To me, it doesn't sound like a district to build asap. You can wait until you have embassies, and spying in general isn't that big of an issue until later on.

The envoy change is the biggest change. then again, i find you aren't generally swimming in envoys in the early game. The boosts to buildings in the early game would only effect tier 1 buildings. It also loses some of it's appeal if the CS are being wiped out. You also have to consider how many buildings are actually being boosted. In the mid to late game, you will have a lot of districts built up. In the early game, not so much.

The main effect this envoy change is going to have, regardless of the details of its implementation, is a leveling and slowing of the early game. I find that I'll get anywhere between 0 and 4 first meets, with the quantity and quality of those first meets having the potential to greatly accelerate the early game. A single early cultural city state first meet doubles your starting culture, almost halving the time it takes to get to Political Philosophy.

I think locking these bonuses behind a district is a sensible way to balance out the inherent luck of the early game, even if it slows down games by a bit. It will definitely make a double scout opener less appealing on deity. Who knows, maybe slotting a monument into your early build order will become a good, if greedy, play?

 

[Amrunril]

I don't understand what this means. Overpowered compared to what? Not building districts? Not making cities? Why would that be a good strategy? Of course, more districts is better. That remains true even if you eliminate all city-states from the game. Removing (or significantly reducing) the envoy bonuses to districts just makes the game take longer without adding any fun or difficulty. Further, it makes every game feel a bit more samey. No more lucky first meets to change your opening plays, no more excitement at seeing 2-3 cultural city-states in your culture game and rushing to build Kilwa. Just... +4 culture. Boring.

Overpowered compared to investing more heavily in city growth. Because the game has so many flat yields, and because of other structural factors such as amenity distribution and weak specialists, a city with 25 population and a great campus location will likely produce less science than two cities that each have 10 population and a mediocre campus location. City state bonuses are one of many factors contributing to this. The two 10 pop cities will receive a total of +8 science from city state bonuses, while the one 25 pop city will only get +4 science.

More cities and more districts should certainly be better than fewer cities and fewer districts. But the trade off between more cities and better cities should be more situational than it is now. Decoupling city state bonuses from district number won't solve this issue completely, but it would avoid making it worse, as the current system does.

 

[acluewithout]

I like the Diplo Quarter District. Mechanically it seems interesting. A few more one district per empire distrcts is good. The Gov Plaza also initially seemed ver two dimensional, but I’ve since come to realise it’s actually incredibly nuanced. I think the Diplo Quarter may end up the same.

Interested to see how City State yields change. That could be the biggest change, and a very welcome one.

I’m not loving the reduced Spy level mechanics. FXS needed to combine all these particular toys with a rebalancing Spies generally, and also maybe a slight rework. If there is going to be scope to have such strong negative levels for Spies, then some Spy missions need to be somehow much more focused on only a few particular Cities so you have some ability to anticipate where Spies will attack. I think Spies also need a more peaceful option, eg being sent as ambassadors, so you’ve got a way to respond to all this increased security.

I'm not super pumped about the buildings. Feels to cover the same ground thematically as the Tier 2 Gov Plaza buildings. If we're going to have a separate district + buildings for diplomacy, envoys and spies, then I think maybe the T2 Gov Plaza buildings should have been reworked more generally. But that said, I'm guessing there are other related changes being made - there's another District + 2 Buildings coming, so I assume that District will be a similar sort of big picture governance one per empire sort of deal - so, maybe this all works out in the wash.

I'm quite sad the One District + Two Buildings meant the Diplo Quarter + Diplo Quarter Buildings, rather than Diplo Quarter (which has it's own buildings) plus two new buildings for the City Centre and or another existing District. But it is what it is.

Anyway. I think there’s a big chunk of wait and see for these new mechanics. After all, it’s really not all that different to the Gov Plaza, and that ended up being one of the best features of the game.