The Old and the New Preview Thread

EQandcivfanatic

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The NES has been launched with a new name:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=425925

Spoiler :

The following is something I have been working on in my free time at work for the past six to eight months. This is not an actual working ruleset at the moment, nor is a release of this NES pending in the near future. The actual starting date is not likely to be until August or September. There's still much work to be done on this NES, and I'm taking my time on it, cause there's still more I want to do with my Fallout inspired NES. I will still accept and honor reservations made here, and some of the ones made during the creation process. Before you jump for the biggest blobs on the map however, please take a gander at the brief discussions of the various rule ideas below.

The History

Unlike prior NESes, I began developing the map for this NES without having a history to go with it. This is primarily because I had four specific thoughts when it came to the type of NES I'd like to moderate:

1. The United States must be united but not a unstoppable juggernaut just yet.
2. Aztecs and Byzantines must be around.
3. The NES must find away to discourage the same boring rivalries which always exist in an NES. Specifically the damned boring Germany vs. France and Russia which almost always emerges.
4. Had to start somewhere in the nineteenth century.

Based on these four principles I molded a new map and history as I went, after consulting with various other NESers along the way. Ultimately I determined to start the NES in 1840, with the map that you can see below. The various specificities of the history have not yet been completed, but the status of the nations as they are now, are done. For now a broad summary of the world as it is:

The world is just beginning to be dominated by the European imperial powers, the three greatest of which being Britain, Spain, and Sweden. Britain is the epitome of European naval power though Spain's own fleet rivals it closely. Sweden's navy is a distant third to these larger powers, but its land forces are second to none. In Europe, the three powers play political games with the disparate nations within Italy, Germany, and France. Spain frequently intervenes in southern France and Italy, frequently to the opposition of Britain. Sweden controls the Baltic Sea through a variety of puppet states such as Prussia, Brandenburg, and Novgorod. Meanwhile the various smaller powers jockey for their own positions as nationalism begins to rear its ugly head throughout the continent.

In the Americas, the United States is still a fairly young nation and has pushed its boundaries to the Mississippi River. Unfortunately opposition from Spain and Sweden has discouraged them from pushing much further west, though regardless of official positions, American settlers continue to poach into Spanish and Swedish territories in North America. Spain continues to be the leading world power throughout the Caribbean and South America, despite losing a few colonies in various wars for independence over the past fifty years.

Around the rest of the world, the various colonial powers of Europe have begun expanding at a dizzily quick rate, taking lands and possessions for themselves to increase their power. So far the British have proven the best at this game, but with the lands of the Far East more accessible than ever, this could change as other Europeans push for influence in China and Japan. Africa remains mostly empty of imperial forces but could soon see a rush of colonists desiring its resources. Time will tell.

A Sample Stat Setup

Nation Name/Player Name
Government
Capitol
Education:
Manpower: Bank (+Per turn)
Total Economy: #
Economic Control: %
Government Spending Points: Bank (+Per Turn)
Upper Class: Influence/Consciousness/Issue
Middle Class: Influence/Consciousness/Issue
Lower Class: Influence/Consciousness/Issue
Army: Brigades
Army Quality: #
Army Organization Style: Type
Navy: Ships
Navy Quality: #
Colonies
Spoiler :

Colony Name: Economic Value
-Garrison:
-Stability: Loyalty/Consciousness/Issue

Projects:
-Project Name: Spent/Total Cost

Economic and Manpower Rules

The economic and manpower setup is a bit of a harkening back to the original rulesets of The World Turned Upside Down and A Brave New World. Economies on the whole will be greatly inflated and the Total economy of all nations will typically be above 10. This is to help simplify the next element of the NES, Economic Control. This is a setting for how much of the economy that your government directly controls through taxation and nationalization. Once you set the percentage, the economic points turn into Government Spending Points, which is the actual amount you can use on government expenses in your turn. As you can see with the sample stats above, GSP CAN be banked, unlike in prior NESes of mine.

You may consider that the best way to go is through maximizes government control to 100% and thus having the complete economy at your disposal. Unfortunately, attempting such a feat will likely result in your ouster from control of your nation as ALL your people rebel against you. No one in the government, army, or population really wants total control by the executive, and I imagine that the most non-communist nations take control of their economy is 60%, and that only in times of war. In summary, players attempting to raise their economic control will face unrest and then revolution, sometimes in the space of a single turn.

Technology and Research

In addition to the stability reasons mentioned above, there's other reasons for preventing the total control of the economy by the government. Namely, any part of the economy not controlled by the government will grow faster AND it will increase the speed with which your nation develops technologies. The education stat simply reflects the overall literacy and status of education in your country, but what's more important is that private companies and individuals have the wealth and resources to invent new goods and services. As most of the research in the era at hand was done by private individuals, this is to reflect that.

Now as it sounds, almost all research will be out of the control of players. These mostly include civilian technologies and theoretical advancements. Therefore the broadest levels of research will not be under your control at any stage of the game, except for the speed at which they are achieved based on your education and portion of the economy dedicated to the private sector. Despite this, this ruleset will feature the return of a limited "tech tree" to my NESes. Within this tech tree will be technologies which would be within a government's interest for research. Therefore this will include weapons technologies, and nuclear and space programs. This method of research will be monumentally expensive and it should be noted that most of the tech tree technologies will emerge naturally even if the tech tree isn't used.

With that it should be stated that ALL technologies (with exception of nuclear/space programs) will be shared among all nations when researched. This includes the tech tree along with advancements made by the private sector. Do not take this to mean that one nation cannot be backwards when compared to another. In addition to the levels of Army Organization, which help differentiate militarily, the nation which leads the way in technology will also take great leaps forward in economic and military quality stats (depending on the invention). Therefore, even though you don't have to pave the way in technologies, it certainly won't hurt if you do.

The last element of research will be designs, as they were my favorite feature of ABNW 2. Specifically players will be able to design their own ships, planes, and tanks as the NES progresses. The designs are connected at the hip with Army and Navy Quality. You can only put so many points into a design, and the number of points you can use is equal to the number of points in the related quality stat. Therefore, if you want to design a new tank, and your Army Quality is 10, you can only put 10 points into the various stats of the tank design.

Stability

Stability rules, while longer than in my previous NESes are a bit simpler at their base. Some of you may recognize the setup from other NESes, but I'll include a summary nonetheless. Though I initially considered up to six different classes of society, I determined to limit it only to the big three: upper, middle, and lower. Each class has three elements of their stability: How much influence they have over your government (thus affecting how much damage they can do if you piss them off), how much they care about your government (affecting how hard it is to piss them off), and what issue they care about most. These stats will be constantly fluid and are easily the most important for your nation. Virtually every policy decision you make will cause changes here and the most important rule: You can never keep all the people happy all the time.

Army Organization

As briefly mentioned above, Army Organization is an important part of this NES, particularly in terms of western vs. nonwestern cultures. Players will be able to create a new Army Organization set up at ANY point in the game, though it will cost a minimum of 1 GSP per brigade in your army to convert from one setup to another in addition to a 30 GSP flat rate to actually design a new Organization. This cost increases based on the disparity between what organization you have and what organization you are converting to. The gap between the Base Cost of your units now and the Base Cost of the units that you would receive with the new organization will be your total cost for conversion (Always with a minimum cost of 1 GSP per turn). Therefore if you have 100 brigade and your Base Cost is 1 GSP, and you want to upgrade to a Army Organization with a Base Cost for units of 3 GSP, you'd have to pay 200 GSP to totally upgrade your army.

Non-western nations will typically have worse Army Organization to start than western nations. This is to reflect the modernization which must take place if they are to compete on the world stage. Beyond that there are no other rules for what EU3 calls "westernization" of other nations (though there may be stability issues in the process of upgrading).

It might seem that the effort may be too expensive, and you may be right. A very large army will have a very difficult time in converting to a more modern design for their forces. This however is completely realistic and some may find it easier to simply have a smaller, but modern, standing army. Unlike in previous NESes however, Army Organization is WAY more important than Army Quality when it comes to deciding battles. Therefore, while you may be able to let your upgrading slide for a time, you certainly cannot forever. Ideally, a army will attempt to modernize its organization and doctrines once every ten to twenty years. As stated in the economic section above however, the economies of all nations will be inflated compared to past NESes, so this is not as daunting as it might sound.

Colonization

This was a difficult part of the ruleset for me, as I attempted to determine a way to balance the player's urge to blob into every free white space there is on the map. Therefore not only does colonization now take a military, economic, and manpower toll, it will require another step. If you wish to expand into "white" territory, you must have at least one of your classes (upper, middle, or lower) have their Issue of concern being Colonization/Expansion/Imperialism. This of course could be encouraged by events in game or policy issues. The exception to this is if you colonies have the desire to expand on their own accord. To repeat myself: Unless your people want to colonize, you will not be able to expand into the empty territory, and no compromise on this.

One final note on colonization. The NES begins in 1840. In 1880, a conference will be required and the game stopped (unless a major world war is ongoing). At this point, players with colonial interests will divide the remaining empty space in the world among themselves. The NES will then jump to 1900 for the next phase, and all nations will gain the territory they claim in the conference for themselves.

Preliminary Nation List

Here's what I'm sure you all have been waiting for, a preliminary list of nations available for reservation. I reserve the right to change nation names/existence before the NES begins. Also, the names in paranthesis are those who were unable to get first line reservation and therefore will be the alternates upon the NES's actual release if the first claimnant fails to materialize.

Spoiler :

The Americas
Spoiler :

Argentina
Republic
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: Brazil

Aztec Empire: Omega124
Theocratic Monarchy
Stability: Unstable
Army: Mid-size and mostly backwards
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: Spain

Chile
Republic
Stability: Unstable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Empire of Brazil
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Mid-size and mostly modern
Navy: Small and mostly modern
Friends: None
Enemies: Argentina

Paraguay
Republic
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Republic of New Granada: Immaculate
Republic
Stability: Unstable
Army: Mid-size and mostly modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: United Kingdom
Enemies: None

United States of America: TheLizardKing
Republic:
Stability: Stable
Army: Tiny and modern
Navy: Small and modern
Friends: None
Enemies: United Kingdom

Uruguay
Republic
Stability: Unstable
Army: Tiny and mostly modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Venezuela
Republic
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: None


Europe
Spoiler :

Austria: warman17
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Mid-size and modern
Navy: None
Friends: Bavaria
Enemies: Hungary, Poland

Bavaria
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and modern
Navy: none
Friends: Austria
Enemies: Brandenburg

Brandenburg: Eltain (Dreadnought)
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Mid-size and modern
Navy: None
Friends: Sweden
Enemies: Bavaria

Britanny
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: None
Enemies: Normandy

Burgundy: Circuit
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Unstable
Army: Large and mostly modern
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: Brandenburg, Netherlands, Paris

Corsica
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Tiny and modern
Navy: Tiny and modern
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Dauphine
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: none
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Denmark: Nailix
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and modern
Navy: Mid-size and modern
Friends: United Kingdom
Enemies: Sweden

Empire of Holy Spain: Milarqui
Theocratic Monarchy
Stability: Stable (Exception: Colonial unrest in Americas)
Army: Very Large and modern
Navy: Very Large and modern
Friends: Papal States
Enemies: United Kingdom, Sweden, Netherlands

Flanders
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: Republic of the Netherlands
Enemies: None

Hungary
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Unstable
Army: Large and somewhat backwards
Navy: Small and somewhat backwards
Friends: Kiev
Enemies: Austria, Roman Empire

Kiev
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Mid-size and somewhat backwards
Navy: None
Friends: Hungary
Enemies: Poland, Moscowy

Languedoc
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Milan: Justo
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: Venice

Moscowy
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Unstable
Army: Large and somewhat backwards
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: Novgorod, Kiev, Sweden

Normandy: The Farow
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and modern
Navy: Tiny and modern
Friends: United Kingdom
Enemies: Brittany

Novgorod
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Mid-size and mostly modern
Navy: None
Friends: Sweden
Enemies: Moscowy

Orleans
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: none
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Papal States
Theocracy
Stability: Stable
Army: Mid-size and modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: Spain
Enemies: None

Paris
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Mid-Size and mostly modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Poitou
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Tiny and mostly modern
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Poland: Cannae
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Large and somewhat backward
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: Austria, Moscowy

Portugal
Absolute Monarchy
Stability; Unstable
Army: Small and modern
Navy: Mid-size and mostly modern
Friends: United Kingdom
Enemies: Spain

Provence
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Tiny and mostly modern
Navy: None
Friends: None
Enemies: Spain

Prussia: GamezRule
Absolute Monarchy
Stability; Unstable
Army: Small and somewhat backward
Navy: None
Friends: Sweden
Enemies: Poland

Republic of the Netherlands: ZeletDude
Republic
Stability; Stable
Army: Mid-size and modern
Navy: Large and mostly modern
Friends: Flanders, Sweden
Enemies: Burgundy: Spain

Republic of Venice
Republic
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: Small and mostly modern
Friends: None
Enemies: Milan, Roman Empire

Roman Empire: bombshoo (Heraclius49)
Absolute Monarchy
Stability; Unstable
Army: Large and somewhat backward
Navy: Small and somewhat backward
Friends: Kiev
Enemies: Ottoman Empire, Venice

Sardinia
Absolute Monarchy
Stability; Stable
Army: Tiny and mostly modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: None
Enemies: None

Savoy:
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: Milan
Enemies: None

Sweden: Lord of Elves (ZeletDude)
Absolute Monarchy
Stability; Stable
Army: Large and best
Navy: Large and modern
Friends: Novgorod, Netherlands, Prussia, Brandenburg
Enemies: Moscowy, Spain, United Kingdom

Switzerland: TheLastJacobite
Republic
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and modern
Navy: None
Friends; None
Enemies: None

Tuscany
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: Tiny and mostly modern
Friends: None
Enemies: Noen

Two Sicilies
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly modern
Navy: Small and mostly modern
Friends: None
Enemies: Ottoman Empire

United Kingdom of Great Britain: Heraclius49
Parliamentary Monarchy
Stability; Stable
Army: Large and modern
Navy: Very large and best
Friends: None
Enemies: Spain, Sweden


Africa/Middle East
Spoiler :

Abyssinia
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Unstable
Army: Mid-size and very backward
Navy: None

Benin
Absolute Monarchy
Stability; Stable
Army: Small and very backward
Navy: None

Liberia
Republic
Stability: Stable
Army: Tiny and mostly modern
Navy: None

Oman
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and somewhat backward
Navy: Small and somewhat backward

Ottoman Empire
Absolute Monarchy
Stability; Unstable
Army: Large and somewhat backward
Navy: Mid-size and somewhat backward

Persia
Absolute Monarchy
Stability; Stable
Army: Mid-size and mostly backward
Navy: None

Tripoli
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Tiny and mostly backward
Navy: Small and somewhat backward

Tunis
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Tiny and mostly backward
Navy: Small and somewhat backward

Yemen
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and somewhat backward
Navy: None

Zulu Kingdom
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly backward
Navy: None



Asia/Pacific
Spoiler :


Burma
Absolute Monarchy
Stability; Unstable
Army: Mid-size and mostly backward
Navy: None

China: crezth
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Unstable
Army: Very Large and mostly backward
Navy: Small and mostly backward

Durrani Empire
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Unstable
Army: Mid-size and mostly backward
Navy: None

Japan: Dreadnought
Feudal Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Mid-size and mostly backward
Navy: None

Khazak Khanate
Khanate
Stability: Unstable
Army: Small and completely backward
Navy: none

Korea
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Small and mostly backward
Navy: Tiny and mostly backward

Maratha Confederacy
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Unstable
Army: Large and mostly backward
Navy: Tiny and mostly backward

Siam
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army; Mid-size and mostly backward
Navy: Tiny and mostly backward

Vietnam
Absolute Monarchy
Stability: Stable
Army: Mid-size and mostly backward
Navy: None

Zunghar Khanate
Khanate
Stability: unstable
Army: Small and completely backward
Navy: none



World Map

As with the Nation List, I reserve the right to change the map before the start of the NES, particularly borders in Asia which I'm currently using placeholders for.
 
Hate to be stereotypical, but I'd love to give the U.S. a try, especially with an Aztec Empire to the south.

Secondary options would be-

2. Brandenburg
3. The Aztecs
4. Oman
 
Hate to be doubly stereotypical, but this list would be my to-be in this NES:

1: Empire of Holy Spain
2: Netherlands
3: Brazil
4: Nueva Granada

Though, I have to say, if the Aztec Empire is still around, I doubt it would be possible for Nueva Granada to sprout in South America, unless somehow the Aztecs managed to rise up against Spanish colonial control after northern South America was started to be colonized on by Spain.
 
1. Sweden
2. Empire of Brazil
3. Netherlands
4. Austrian Empire
 
1. United States
2. Roman Empire
3. Austrian Empire
4. Ottoman Empire
 
Deleted... no time to handle this many NESes at this moment.
 
Because the Roman Republic totally is in Italy. Especially when the Papal States also exist.
 
-Brandenburg

over

- Burgundy
- Provence
- Paris
 
Republic of New Granada (PWEASE PWEASE PWEASE PWEASE!)
United Kingdom of Great Britain
Two Sicilies
whatever

EDIT: i should say also that i think your rule set looks very promising.
 
1. Venice
2. Milan
3. Roman Republic
4. Papal States



There is no Byzantine Empire? Did you decide it was not feasible? I refer to thought 2 in the opening post.

The Roman Empire would be the Byzantines, if I understand correctly.

Also affirming claim to Switzerland. I would love to grab one of the big powers and tear s**t up, but with my work schedule the way it is, I'll have to settle for something small and out of the way :(
 
1. Byzantine Empire
2. United Kingdom of Great Britain
3. Prussia
4. Republic of new Granada
 
Does this mean the end of your Fallout NES :(
 
This MIGHT be the end of the Fallout NES, but not any time soon. As I said in the initial post, this NES won't materialize at any point soon. The main reason for this thread is reservations and, more importantly, discussion of the ideas behind the rules. Between now and August or September we'll see how things shape out with Fallout and this possible NES.
 
The Roman Empire would be the Byzantines, if I understand correctly.

Thanks... I pretty much knew that, I realized my wording was a bit different but I meant to figure out why the name change. It is not that important to me and requires no explanation, sorry.

Also, I do not think I really will have the time for this anyways if it starts within the next few weeks. I might join after a month or two. So you can disregard my list.
 
I have been lurking in hopes of a new EQ nes. These are my top 3 picks (feeling very central Europe-y):

1) Austrian Empire
2) Poland
3) Sweden
 
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