The Sailors Dirge
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
I voted that the Dirge is balanced about right. If it appears real close, at least you know right away and can restart if you want to. My main issue with it is that I don't see it enough!! Unless a way can be found to stop the Barbs from parking it in their cities, I don't think the feature is worth working on further. It typically ends up parked in a Barb city really early (after 2-4 skelly drops) on the games I play, negating its major purpose.
If that can be fixed, I'd love to see bcaclhet's idea implemented!
If that can be fixed, I'd love to see bcaclhet's idea implemented!
BCalchet said:
Grev_michal
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2005
- Messages
- 28
I have now encountered the dirge twice - one of the times I didnt stand a chance but the second it had only spawned 2 skellies and I had 2 warriors(one with strengt 1+shock) pulled it through just barely.
I think it is just right - its a big threat early on, but that is just part of the fun.
I think it is just right - its a big threat early on, but that is just part of the fun.
I voted Yes, it definitly needs to be toned down, because from what I've read from other peoples experience It seems like its a gamebreaker SOMETIMES. And I dont really aprove of a mechanic that can end your or another players existance just because of a random bad luck that you cant do much about.
I like mechanics that reward skillful play. Which Orthus CAN do. A civ almost never get eradicated because of bad luck when it comes to Orthus. A skillful player will be prepared and if Orthus spawns near you it is advantagous, because you WILL get a highly promoted unit out of him, with a unique promotion.
Although, reading some more people's posts and having played more since I voted, I think that the Dirge needs to be more of a pain then it is now, and more of an annoyance. But also I think it should be rewarding to take care of the problem. I dont want it to be impossible, but probably hard (depending on difficulty, it should be hard on all difficulties, but not fun-wrecking hard).
I like mechanics that reward skillful play. Which Orthus CAN do. A civ almost never get eradicated because of bad luck when it comes to Orthus. A skillful player will be prepared and if Orthus spawns near you it is advantagous, because you WILL get a highly promoted unit out of him, with a unique promotion.
Although, reading some more people's posts and having played more since I voted, I think that the Dirge needs to be more of a pain then it is now, and more of an annoyance. But also I think it should be rewarding to take care of the problem. I dont want it to be impossible, but probably hard (depending on difficulty, it should be hard on all difficulties, but not fun-wrecking hard).
Another game: the dirge sat in front of my capital city for the first 150 turns. It ARRIVED on turn 20, immediately landing three skeletons on my shores (and almost taking my city--one of my two warriors survived with 0.4 strength), and it just kept sitting there. Until turn 150 it unloaded a total of 9 additional skeletons (always in waves of three), making for a total of 12 skeletons in the 150 turns it sat there. Just as I started building dragonships, though, it set sails and disappeared. I found it at anchor in a barb city a little later. I conquered the city (horses, pigs, rice, and two times gems on "normal" bonuses--what the hell, I had to get it) and the dirge just dissolved into thin air.
Gamestation
Introducing Servo
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 551
Voted no opinion because the Dirge is not too strong, not too weak, but certainly not balanced in my opinion. (so none of the other choices fit)
The AI is obviously getting the shaft with the Sailor's Dirge because all the player has to do to avoid the Dirge is settle inland! I tried it in a game and for over 100 turns the Dirge did not come after me even when my cultural boundaries went over waters that the Dirge could enter. I started the map with no AIs so that I would be the only target and the map was Duel sized so it should not have taken that long to search for me so it was obviously not coming after me. The AI does not recognize the threat the Dirge is to coastal cities so if it start next to the coast, it settles there and then gets mauled by the Dirge. The Dirge has to be made later.
I know that the problem with making it spawn later is that another turn checker would have to be added to identify when it is turn "x." Don't have the Dirge spawn on its own then. Have the Barbarians build the Dirge like they build Acheron the Red Dragon. To make sure the Dirge gets built, spawn a different unit (I imagine a unit named Foreboding Mist*) in the beginning of the game that will act like a war camp on the water and builds the Dirge first. Then alter the hammer cost to control when the Dirge spawns. Make it spawn at a time when the AI would be ready to defend against three skeletons at once. Also make the Dirge a hero unit that summons skeletons, instead of spawns so that the skeletons can recieve empowered.
*Foreboding Mist
Can only defend
1
1
Can build units (Sailor's Dirge)
Provides 1
The barbarians should start with this unit and use it to build the Sailor's Dirge so that the Dirge spawns at a reasonable time instead of at the very beginning of the game. Foreboding Mists should also be useful for helping the AI and players level up their ships.
The AI is obviously getting the shaft with the Sailor's Dirge because all the player has to do to avoid the Dirge is settle inland! I tried it in a game and for over 100 turns the Dirge did not come after me even when my cultural boundaries went over waters that the Dirge could enter. I started the map with no AIs so that I would be the only target and the map was Duel sized so it should not have taken that long to search for me so it was obviously not coming after me. The AI does not recognize the threat the Dirge is to coastal cities so if it start next to the coast, it settles there and then gets mauled by the Dirge. The Dirge has to be made later.
I know that the problem with making it spawn later is that another turn checker would have to be added to identify when it is turn "x." Don't have the Dirge spawn on its own then. Have the Barbarians build the Dirge like they build Acheron the Red Dragon. To make sure the Dirge gets built, spawn a different unit (I imagine a unit named Foreboding Mist*) in the beginning of the game that will act like a war camp on the water and builds the Dirge first. Then alter the hammer cost to control when the Dirge spawns. Make it spawn at a time when the AI would be ready to defend against three skeletons at once. Also make the Dirge a hero unit that summons skeletons, instead of spawns so that the skeletons can recieve empowered.
*Foreboding Mist
Can only defend
1 1Can build units (Sailor's Dirge)
Provides 1
The barbarians should start with this unit and use it to build the Sailor's Dirge so that the Dirge spawns at a reasonable time instead of at the very beginning of the game. Foreboding Mists should also be useful for helping the AI and players level up their ships.
Hypnotoad
Prince
There is a nice elegance to the dirge being a hero that provides empower to the skeletons. That would increase its fear factor over time. I also like the idea of further dirges later in the game.
But I agree that to make this work, you need to keep the dirge out of Barbarian costal cities.
But I agree that to make this work, you need to keep the dirge out of Barbarian costal cities.
Darkkender
Chieftain
Kael said:
I'm playing 0.16a
In a recent game, I had the Dirge, the Dragon City, and a few barrows pumping out barbarians near my borders. To combat this I rushed the tech and build of the Baron (I think I had him by about turn 150-200) and started hunting the bastargs down. Skeletons and orc spearmen make easy pickings for ravenous wearwolves and they upgrade to blooded wearwolves. Inside 100 turns I had seven or eight great wearwolves in addition to the Baron and dominated the rest of the game easily! The barbarians turned into a blessing rather than a curse.
Yeah, I find Barbs to be blessings in disguise more often then not, as well. They're only dangerous if you don't prepare. If you're the kind of person who thinks one warrior per city throughout the game is enough, you'll die. If you don't keep adequate 'just in case' forces around, you'll be hosed when something happens. But if you keep up with your preparations and have a strong military on hand at all times, you'll be able to handle just about anything the Barbs (or the AI!) throw at you.
onedreamer
Dragon
MrUnderhill said:It isn't so much that the Dirge is overpowered, just that it comes into the game way too early. Even Orthus and Acheron don't appear until year 75 or later, but the Dirge shows up on turn 0 and starts killing civs from there.
If it spawned randomly like the other Barb heroes, or once two other civs get Sailing or some other sea-related tech, then most civs would have enough cover from Skeletons at that time, and some would even have a means to fight the Dirge ship-to-ship. If your cities aren't properly defended by then, that's your fault.
fully agree with MrUnderhill.
Randolph
Warlord
I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize if this is redundant:
Playing noble (epic speed) yesterday the dirge showed up next to me somewhere around turn 30-50, unloaded some skeletons, and razed a city. Alone this would seem like a pretty reasonable "bad luck scenario," the problem was that after fighting off the skeletons, and rebuilding the city... there was the dirge, still sitting in the same spot. I kept going for another 10-15 turns before giving up, and the damn thing never moved. This is the only time I've had this happen (out of about 10 games), so I'm not sure if it's a consistent problem, but I thought I'd report it.
Playing noble (epic speed) yesterday the dirge showed up next to me somewhere around turn 30-50, unloaded some skeletons, and razed a city. Alone this would seem like a pretty reasonable "bad luck scenario," the problem was that after fighting off the skeletons, and rebuilding the city... there was the dirge, still sitting in the same spot. I kept going for another 10-15 turns before giving up, and the damn thing never moved. This is the only time I've had this happen (out of about 10 games), so I'm not sure if it's a consistent problem, but I thought I'd report it.
H.GrenadeFrenzy
Laughing Demolitionist
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 220
I have so many nasty ideas for the Dirge that I had better just say I like it! But then again those same ideas I have are for barbarians in general....Here barbarian,,Here barbarian...'What can I do for you to get you to attack others for me....Some magick...Some wine....How about something else you covet...."
MrUnderhill
Civ-loving Hobbit
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2005
- Messages
- 655
Randolph said:
I've had that issue before, and I've also seen the Dirge park itself in Barbarian cities for decades on end (very annoying if it's also Acheron's city).
Maybe we could make the Dirge unable to fortify, sleep, or skip turn (except when healing). That would keep it on the move and make it more likely to attack multiple civs instead of punishing the first one it meets.
Nero's fire
Warlord
First game for .16 didn't see the dirge at all.
Second one (version .16a) it showed up on turn 16.
Settings: Fractal/Emperor/Epic/Calabim
Having heard from other posters about the dangers of the dirge I parked my starting warrior in my city and had built my second one. It was a space away from the coast. Dirge unloaded three skeletons and the first attacked an I won then the others just left.
The dirge continued to spawn skeles for the next 60 some turns and it made the local enviroment very dangerous. I eventually started taking them out with hunters and had a good force. Then orkas spawned near my city. Sending my army at it to defend in a near by forest all but one of my hunters were erradicated and the last came back severly wounded. I tell you folks the Dirge saved my civilizations life.
I found later that I had gotten slowed down a lot by the dirge and was behind every other civ.
I voted that the dirge should become more powerful especially with time, maybe start spawning nightmares like Barrows eventually do. But mostly I agree that there should be some reward for the dirge. That way even if you play your cards right your not gimped for the game.
Second one (version .16a) it showed up on turn 16.
Settings: Fractal/Emperor/Epic/Calabim
Having heard from other posters about the dangers of the dirge I parked my starting warrior in my city and had built my second one. It was a space away from the coast. Dirge unloaded three skeletons and the first attacked an I won then the others just left.
The dirge continued to spawn skeles for the next 60 some turns and it made the local enviroment very dangerous. I eventually started taking them out with hunters and had a good force. Then orkas spawned near my city. Sending my army at it to defend in a near by forest all but one of my hunters were erradicated and the last came back severly wounded. I tell you folks the Dirge saved my civilizations life.
I found later that I had gotten slowed down a lot by the dirge and was behind every other civ.
I voted that the dirge should become more powerful especially with time, maybe start spawning nightmares like Barrows eventually do. But mostly I agree that there should be some reward for the dirge. That way even if you play your cards right your not gimped for the game.
A reward for the Dirge? How about this...
The Diabolical Charts
The unit that defeats the Sailor's Dirge gains the Diabolical Charts, a set of secret maps granting power to a ship's captain. A ship loaded with the Diabolical Charts gains +1, +1 , and +1 cargo. Also, upon defeating any other ship in combat, the defeated ship becomes a Ghost Ship (2 , 2 , 2 cargo) under the player's control. Any units loaded aboard a ship that becomes a Ghost Ship become Skeletons, also under the player's control. Ghost Ships, like the Sailor's Dirge, may spawn Skeletons... however, the chance is only 1%.
Of course, the Sailor's Dirge has this ability as well...
Overall, the mechanic should be similar to Orthus' Axe.
The Diabolical Charts
The unit that defeats the Sailor's Dirge gains the Diabolical Charts, a set of secret maps granting power to a ship's captain. A ship loaded with the Diabolical Charts gains +1
, +1 , and +1 cargo. Also, upon defeating any other ship in combat, the defeated ship becomes a Ghost Ship (2 , 2 , 2 cargo) under the player's control. Any units loaded aboard a ship that becomes a Ghost Ship become Skeletons, also under the player's control. Ghost Ships, like the Sailor's Dirge, may spawn Skeletons... however, the chance is only 1%.Of course, the Sailor's Dirge has this ability as well...
Overall, the mechanic should be similar to Orthus' Axe.
playing 0.16a, emperor, epic - had 3 skeletons dropped next to my capital at turn ~35 the first two games. Despite building warriors I was eliminated both times, the trouble is that 3str vs 2str is a very unfavourable matchup. I think it would be more fair for the Dirge to spawn 2strs right at the start of the game so that warriors (the only thing players have at that point) can fight them on even terms, and then make the units more powerful with time.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Maybe there should be a tier-1 undead unit? Start with spawning that, then switch to skeletons, wraiths, etc. later.
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