The Sinister Scheme of Dr. Fu Manchu

[Cam_H]

Well, there was a PPP posted in #236 but it got tweaked. Still, no discussion on Libraries and Aqueducts and so on. There's a creeping 'hybridisation' sneaking in, where our cities are lacking specialisation with a mish-mash of Farms, Cottages, and Mines. I think that we should have three unit pumps and a science centre. I'm reluctant to bulldozer the Cottages now that they're up however.

OK, I'm happy to wait for FiveRings's input. I'm also inclined to take that deal.

Thoughts on technology from here? As before, Literature is tempting, but I'm not sure if we should be building Wonders at this stage. I do like Feudalism, to give us another 'string to our bow' in terms of military composition.

Great Prophet ... bulb Theology? Great Scientist (if we get to running Scientists) ... Academy in Manchu's Snarl?

 

[FiveRings]

Well, there was a PPP posted in #236 but it got tweaked. Still, no discussion on Libraries and Aqueducts and so on. There's a creeping 'hybridisation' sneaking in, where our cities are lacking specialisation with a mish-mash of Farms, Cottages, and Mines. I think that we should have three unit pumps and a science centre. I'm reluctant to bulldozer the Cottages now that they're up however.

OK, I'm happy to wait for FiveRings's input. I'm also inclined to take that deal.

Thoughts on technology from here? As before, Literature is tempting, but I'm not sure if we should be building Wonders at this stage. I do like Feudalism, to give us another 'string to our bow' in terms of military composition.

Great Prophet ... bulb Theology? Great Scientist (if we get to running Scientists) ... Academy in Manchu's Snarl?

I'm OK with the PPP in the previous post. I am a bit hesitant on two pints, though, that I don't understand very well:
1. Hwachas with HAs (and archers). To my mind, in a mix, the hwachas will be the punch item, the HA for mopping and distracting and protection with an additional attacking where necessary. The HAs, if numberous enough, can go a separate fast course to smaller cities, too. Is that the idea? Or are we gonna use the hwachas as catapult+, relying on HAs as the main punch force? What are we thinking about the invasion army's initial rough parameters: 8-10 HAs and 8-10 Hs, 2-3 Archers?
2. Deal with WK. Seems to imply that we are planning to keep conquered (Indian)cities. But is that the case? Building markets takes a long time. One in Snarl will be OK, but that's all there is, it seems - at least in the foreseeable future. And then, we'll be giving away our most valuable military techs to WK, whom we are going to fight to the bitter end at some point. Or is it a good deal just as something we might get now for our techs?
I trust your better judgment on the trade and the army, but would be nice to get a clearer idea about the thinking behind both. Especially that these decisions have long-term implications which I might not fully grasp, eg, do we plan to keep conquered Indian cities even if they don't have strategic resources just to get Raum?
HOWEVER, you might answer these after playing, if at all. BTW, I'll be away from my computer Monday-Wednesday, so it might be better to take a skip if the team can't wait somewhat longer: I feel I'd better prepare a PPP that is more detailed and take my time doing the TS. I am not sure that I can do both this evening.
On the ideas in THIS post:
1. Techwise: LBs seem the preferable shot in comparison to going for the GL (although all those Epics might come handy, too) If we have seen some conquerable Indian copper or iron, we might think about going for the maces instead, though (getting an axe (later - mace) and a spear combo instead of one or two LBs is less efficient moneywise, but provides an extra hap and a flexibility army-wise. But I would gladly go after the LB if you prefer it.
2. GP-wise: if we are not going after Christianity - and we don't seem to need it - or the Hague Sophia - which is also quite doubtable - then I would simply join the prophet for the additional hammers and gold. It seems that early GrPr joining provides much more gold than a tech that is not quite necessary at the moment (Istill assume we'll be having WK's religion as our state one, keeping the shrine and cap of the b.rd.)

Of course, these are just my twopence ... and in a time of inflation ...

 

[Cam_H]

FiveRings,

Thanks for the good questions.

Rightly or wrongly ...

On Horse Archers

Some of the reasons that I'd stick them in the mix with our Hwachas could include;

• 6 versus 5 (albeit 5.4 versus cities)
• Chance of withdrawal and survival
• Ignore first strikes - possibly better odds versus the first tough Archers
• Can move with the Hwacha stack and pillage on the same turn
• Can attack any loose enemy units on flatlands and move back into the stack
• Once the battle's away, new Horse Archers can move quickly to the front
• We've already invested a lot of in Stables for well promoted units

On keeping enemy cities and their cost

Firstly I'd suggest that we're unlikely to get an invasion underway in my turnset, so we've got more time to grow our Cottages, and the roster seems to like the Currency deal, meaning more commerce from and the option to trade resources and technology for gold.

Secondly, we have the benefit of being Financial, so we're a shade better than a lot of tribes in having a sound commerce base in our homeland, but also captured enemy cities with commerce-oriented tiles also get +1 - so there's a marginally better outlook in terms of funding expansion.

Thirdly, if we do take out Gandhi (or indeed most of our immediate neighbours), he's only got four cities (giving us a 'tolerable' maintenance level of eight provided we have Currency) of which hopefully Delhi's pretty good. Taking cities also provides a reward, and if we raze them, the AI will just resettle the spots, defeating the point of invasion given that we're all so land-pressed.

Wang Kon

I've got to admit that I was looking at Korea myself for quite a while as our first war target, but I'm quite OK to keep him on side for a while now we're 'all friendly like' and go after some other scalp. lymond suggested England. I kinda like India (Pyramids, low unit production, non-protective trait leader) but unfortunately Gandhi's popular with a lot of other leaders, and he hasn't cleared away much jungle making the development of his land in the future if we get it quite laborious. Still, it's very unlikely we'll be 'pulling the trigger' on anyone in the next 15 turns.

Theology

I thought Theology largely for tech' trade value and the option of swapping into Theocracy. As 'icing', we get a small discount on the cost of researching Paper. I'm not sure if I'll get the chance to pop our first in my turnset anyway. We can maybe discuss it more after I'm done.

 

[Cam_H]

As discussed, generally the push was to grow Manchu's Snarl's Cottages, swap into Hereditary Rule, and whip out Hwachas (2 pop whip at up to 9) or Horse Archers (2 pop whip at up to 19).

We self-researched Feudalism, traded for Currency (below), and ignored Calendar deal due to obsoleting effect on Stonehenge*.
____

200BC | Opening

Revolt to Hereditary Rule
Research: Feudalism
Wang Kon: Construction + Horseback Riding <> Currency + 270​

175BC | Turn 1

Black Horse: Whip Library
Bay of Storms: Library (interrupt) > Horse Archer
Science: 100%​

150BC | Turn 2

Gandhi wants to trade Calendar <> Monarchy + 140 (would also obsolete Stonehenge*) ... decline.

V Frown: Horse Archer > Hwacha (must build 'naturally' as excess overflow doesn't assist whipping).
Black Horse: Library > Hwacha​

125BC | Turn 3

Zzzz​

100BC | Turn 4

Mao Zedong declares war on Roosevelt! Sounds exciting, doesn't it? Don't get excited - nothing seems to come of it for 200 years!​

Bay of Storms: Whip Horse Archer​

75BC | Turn 5

V Frown: Hwacha > Horse Archer
Black Horse: Hwacha > Hwacha
Bay of Storms: Horse Archer > Hwacha​

50BC | Turn 6

Zzzz​

25BC | Turn 7

Black Horse: Whip Hwacha

Wang Kon has Metal Casting​

1AD | Turn 8

Black Horse: Hwacha > Hwacha
V Frown: Whip Horse Archer

Wang Kon now has Literature???​

25AD | Turn 9

V Frown : Horse Archer > Horse Archer

Wan Kon now has Feudalism???

Stalin: Trade 70 <> Monotheism​

50AD | Turn 10

Gandhi builds The Hanging Gardens in Madras.

Bay of Storms: Hwacha > Horse Archer​

75AD | Turn 11

V Frown: Hwacha > Horse Archer​

100AD | Turn 12

Zzzz​

125AD | Turn 13 (final)

Wang Kon spawns a Great Artist ... could he have also picked up Music??? He only just popped a Great Merchant two turns prior???

China takes New York.

We finish Feudalism, and have a on the way (2 turns:, currently 93% and 6%).​

In summary:

Wang Kon's becoming somewhat of a runaway ... he self-researched three, possibly four tech's in his turnset, plus the two we traded to him. (Do I hear FiveRings in the distance saying; "I told you so!"? )

Despite a dedicated effort to improve our Power rating, we're still 'pretty average'.

While we've got a big chip now in Feudalism, Roosevelt and Churchill are nearly with us. Only Gandhi, Mao, and Stalin are lagging.

Nothing much on the trade front. I could have traded away Monarchy fairly early on for 200-ish, but we were already cashed up and didn't feel like feeding the AI with such a handy technology.

V Frown's Horse Archer is due to be whipped next turn (150AD), and check Black Horse's Hwacha.​

_________

Screenies:

Spoiler :

Top cities ... India has a nice couple of WoWs!


Power graph didn't improve as much as expected.


Got enough units for an invasion, but not a sustained invasion. imho we should keep whipping out more.


City screens:

* Error on my account.

 

[Cam_H]

Better do something about this roster ...

FiveRings (skip)
woopdeedoo <<< Up
lymond <<< On Deck
FiveRings
woopdeedoo
Cam
<< Open >>
<< Open >>

 

[FiveRings]

Better do something about this roster ...

FiveRings (skip)
woopdeedoo <<< Up
lymond <<< On Deck
FiveRings
woopdeedoo
Cam
<< Open >>
<< Open >>

Thanks, Cam!
And thanks also for the excellent turnset and the hints in the report!
Are we aiming for approximately the current ration of H vs HA - but maybe double the total amount, or this just turned out to be the best one based on what was at hand?

I am pretty amazed at the rate WK is getting techs, too, so don't feel like whining about that deal. it is highly probable that WK is a good trader, too...
I start to think it might be better to revert to hitting him first. Otherwise he might be feeding all the other AIs with techs and we might lose a long-term race. Just a thought, I don't have enough experience in warmongering to even back this thought with any reasonable specifics....Except that this might give Gandhi the time to chop the jungles...

 

[Cam_H]

Wang Kon and technology

I must say that I'm at a bit of a loss to explain Wang's technology rate, and how he picked up three technologies in three turns. He presumably has done some bulbing of s, and has some nice cottages running. I don't recall the AI doing partial researching of technologies, and then moving on to other tech's before returning to complete them later, but maybe that's what might have happened (?). It doesn't even look as though he's got these in trades (unless I'm mistaken) as they seem to be monopoly tech's.

Whipping

I guess that while it looked a bit like I whipped indiscriminately in the report above, I actually was quite careful with overflow and re-growth. I also tried to work/grow those few Cottages outside of Manchu's Snarl if I could without compromising the whip-regrow where possible, and tried to get close to 9 (Hwachas) or 19 (Horse Archers) in cities pre-whipping as applicable to get good overflow so that post-whip the cities could concentrate on getting their populations back up to 4+.

Invasion force

In terms of stack composition, I'd lean toward something like; 50% Hwachas, 25% Horse Archers, 25% Longbows. Our 'window of opportunity' in terms of warfare, I feel, will be closing soon if we continue to go without Iron or Copper (or Ivory) ... no Pikes, no Maces, no Crossbows, no Knights, no War Elephants ..., and we'd otherwise need to wait until Gunpowder before we can look at invading anyone. If we can get together a stack of 20-24-ish units in the next turnset-and-a-half, we should be capable of hitting somebody in 20-30 turns from now I'd hope.

... otherwise, the next apparent option might be to settle down and play peacefully; work hard to get to Astronomy, and focus on capturing the overseas continent instead (given the 'Terra' map). This really doesn't quite have the same appeal as undertaking a bit of forceful expansion in the close-to-medium term.

... with that said, I don't think that all other available options are completely out of the question, but to me, these appear to me right now to be our two best bets.

Uncertainties

I guess we still need to confirm what we'll do with our upcoming , and if we are going to invade someone - who?

Other minor points

I moved a Horse Archer to Manchu's Snarl for Hereditary Rule happiness purposes - we should swap in a less useful unit to do this at some point.

I dragged the scouting Chariot eventually over to India to get a better look at that turf. Obviously it would be good to continue that.

I just built a new Cottage in Manchu's Snarl ... I'm not certain whether another Scientist would be better than a citizen to work this new Cottage or not, or whether the Farm+Cows should be next up just to keep our population high.

 

[vranasm]

well with sitting at 125 AD the question remains if you shouldn't think about renassainse (sp?) breakout especially if you are not planning to wage any kind of war in next 20T (and you surely can't).

I didn't look at the save, just from the SS's by Cam so take it as I give it.

If you wanted classical war, the attack date even on Monarch is close to 200 BC as latest and definitely not around 400 AD.

For next games very good attack dates (thats for FR and W mostly) are around 500 BC with classical warfare, so surely a lot of optimization of game play is needed.

And if WK is tech speeding as he usually knows...he can be soon to LB's.

and since you traded him Constr. he will have probably some hwacha's too.

Mao+Roos are on the war from one SS... so maybe some quick dogpile would be best. with 4 HA's you can maybe take some city from roos. Mao is I think protective, that would be more complicated.

I wouldn't mix HA's with hwacha's. This somehow doesn't click with me.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Cam, thanks for the TS report. One question, why the calendar aversion? We don't have stonehenge so who cares if it gets obsoleted? I'm just wondering because we have a couple of calendar resources (of the very, very few resources we have on this map) and I think it is worth our while to develop them.

I will look at the save shortly and write up a nice and detailed PPP and play tonight or tomorrow. On that note, I will be in Jo'burg from tomorrow night and will be unable to play until next week (Sunday at the earliest, Monday at the latest). I will still be commenting etc, though

 

[Cam_H]

... what was I thinking? Sorry - for some reason that not even I can explain I thought the Great Prophet points were coming from Stonehenge as well as The Oracle. Aren't you glad you have such helpful leadership from an Immortal level player now?

We should be able to pick Calendar up in a trade easily enough at some point seeing it is known by pretty well everyone iirc.

vranasm ... thanks for the comments. Wang has Feudalism, and he'd be the last of our immediate neighbours I'd hit in light of a few factors - including Protective Longbows. I'm still confident that we can cobble together an invasion of one of the others though. My preference remains India, but England could be do-able, and as noted America's now distracted and probably vulnerable after losing New York. While I admit that it's late-ish, I'm still fairly optimistic that we can take a scalp if we get together an 'OK' stack. If the rest of the roster thinks "not", then I guess we just have to bunker in for a while and tech' to Astro and/or Mil' Tradition+Gunpowder and/or Steel and break out in one fashion or another.

Updated Roster:

FiveRings (skip)
woopdeedoo <<< Up
lymond <<< On Deck
FiveRings
woopdeedoo (skip)
Cam​

 

[woopdeedoo]

General PPP:

From the save, we are bumping into issues. Both Snarl and V Frown is unhealthy. We need to either get aquaducts (esp for Snarl) or whip away the illness. I will wait for team input. Gonna trade for Calendar and keep on current research (CS iirc). Also just going to continue spitting out hwatchas and HAs and LBs (we got feudalism, right?). So I foresee a relatively quiet set. Will also work sparingly with the whip.

Only 10t, right?

 

[Cam_H]

15-ish turns. If a few fewer or a few more makes sense (e.g. at a point where we secure a key technology, or finish a war), then that's fine.

My view ...

'No' to Aqueducts.

... I believe that we urgently need an army to attack someone (vranasm's already suggesting that we're too slow to the point of hopelessness, I respectfully disagree and am still optimistic that we can just get there if we move our 'behinds').

We should be shooting for something like; four-five Longbows, four-five more Hwachas and a few extra Horse Archers to complete the stack (which should be brought together at some point rather than currently residing in disparate cities to offset whip weariness). I'm aware that these cities creep into unhealthiness, but this is a minor problem compared to being stuck with four 'so-so' cities for half the game. Once we move the units out of our cities, they're also likely to go into temporary unhappiness too (so be it).

'2 population' whip Longbows and Horse Archers when we've got something like 14 to 19 (max) invested in the build in a city with at least 4 population, or whip Hwachas when we've got something like between 4 to 9 (max) invested in the build in a city with at least 4 population. We do need to build a Warrior or something else that's cheap to swap with the Horse Archer in Manchu's Snarl (who can then join the invasion stack). The point being, careful consideration of 'whip and re-grow' can build us a quick invasion force with limited unhappiness. Indiscriminate whipping is not the idea, and not whipping units in V Frown / Bay of Storms / Black Horse is also not the idea either. This will mean micro-management of cities.

... speaking of which, both V Frown and Black Horse are due for whips on your first turn (i.e. 150AD) when V Frown will have 18 invested in the Horse Archer, and Black Horse will have 6 invested in its Hwacha.

If you wanted to move citizens on to the Cows and a Mined Hill in Manchu's Snarl just to complete that Monastery, that'd be OK, but until Manchu's Snarl gets its population up to 9 or more, I'd not be too concerned about rushing through an Aqueduct.

b.t.w. Nottingham, Madras, and Boston each have near-by health resources which one day soon will be ours! Mwah-ha-ha ... Mwah-Ha-HA!​

What do you plan to do with our next ?

Tech ... I'm happy with Civil Service. Fortunately (for me! ) that Gandhi deal of Calendar <> Monarchy + is still available, which is what I'm assuming you'll go for.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Ok, then. No aquaducts. Next maybe fire off an early GA? i will do the Ghandi trade and then focus on military production etc. I will keep an eye on the and whip and try and maximise the output for max efficiency. I may need to stop here and there to ask for advice, though.

 

[Cam_H]

I'm not exactly sure what to do with the Great Prophet as there are 'good things' about most options ... FiveRings likes the idea of merging him into the capital, I'd lean toward a Theology bulb, and you've proposed a Golden Age (although I can't recall for sure, but we might need 2s for our inaugural Golden Age in Warlords?). Your call.

 

[woopdeedoo]

One last thing before I play, what about clam<>horse with MZ? It'll alleviate short-term health issues... Maybe worth it for my TS?

[EDIT] Running out of time here so make executive decision to go for it. Can be cancelled at beginning of next TS [/EDIT]

 

[Cam_H]

He won't talk to us ... however if you want.

 

[woopdeedoo]

He won't talk to us ... however if you want.

Just played t1 and he is pleased with us

 

[Cam_H]

OK ... you're as good as gold then!

 

[woopdeedoo]

T0 - Take the Ghandi trade. Switch Snarl to work the hammer tiles, monastary due in 2t. Start moving workers to silks.

T1 - Trade clams<>horses with MZ. BoS: HA > LB. V Frown: whip HA. BH: whip Hwacha.

T2 - This nice lookin' trade?



I am tempted. WK won't trade lit so I assume he is building the GLib. I decide to hold off on the trade for now. Snarl: Mona > Archer. BH: Hwacha > HA. V Frown: HA > Hwacha.

Kobo-Daishi (GPr) born in Snarl, decide to tech Theo.Christianity founded in BH. I query the roster here, revolt to Theo? Yes? No?

 

[Cam_H]

Black Horse doesn't have a Stable, so I'd keep to Longbows or Hwachas there.

Theocracy suits me.