The 'Ultimate' Civics Expander and Balancer Mod

[Dom Pedro II]

How about if Universal Suffrage increases the chance of the people electing incompetent politicians

Seriously though... universal suffrage does have a few downsides that may or may not be a source of inspiration for a sufficient downside.

Elections are expensive... not only for the candidates, but you have to have voting machines, people who count them, people who administer the election results. And you've got local elections, province/state level elections and national elections for legislators as well as the executive... so you're looking at some maintenance increases there.

Also, sometimes it's not just about a civic's direct negative effects but a level of control that it takes away from the player that other civics in the category would give them...

Also, to address another point brought up by ToV: The mod I've been working on myself includes many, many civics that support each other... they have a sort of hand in glove effect. For example... your point about Police State and Free Speech is very true. My plan is that not only would Free Speech and Police State cancel each other out, but they would have an intense destabilizing effect.

In fact, Free Speech is the most volatile of all the civics and is the one that could potentially greatly increase the power and use of one civic while rendering another one not only ineffectual but actually downright destructive.

So, for this reason, Free Speech, in my mod, doesn't really do much in and of itself but is used to augment or sort of discourage the use of other civics in conjunction with it.

I'm working on new Promotion functionality in the SDK at the moment, but the civics is definitely a priority.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, definitely number of city cost penalty was the direction I was heading in myself.
As for Free Speech, I confess this is getting the boot as a distinct category in phase 4 (well, in the more advanced versions). Instead, "Freedom of Speech" will be represented by such things as Civil or International Law, a Libertarian Ideology and a society which values either Freedom or Equal Rights. Now, any combination of these Legal, Values and Ideology civics will have a number of 'positive synergies' (and some negative ones as well), and they will all work well in conjunction with a Republican or Parliamentary Government civic. However, if I do it right, I hope they will all prove nearly fatally antagonistic to the Police State and Dictatorship civics.

For example, Libertarianism will grant bonuses from Universities and Theatres, but have a happiness penalty from Courthouses, Barracks and Jails.
By the same token, Police State produces happiness bonuses from Jails which will be effectively cancelled out by the Libertarian civic penalty.
I confess I haven't entirely thought it through, but you get a brief idea right there.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, whilst we're at it, would any of you guys like to help me brainstorm for phase 3?
To get us started, these are the Ideological Civics I am considering:

Militaristic-Likely bonuses are a +1 happiness from Barracks and Stables, and a +25% GG Rate. Penalty could be a -3 Food from Barracks (to represent an increase in career military over having a family). Alternatively, the +1 Happiness could be replaced with a -25% WW Rate.

Theocratic- Likely bonuses are +2 happiness in State Religion Cities. +2 Free Priests. Possible penalties are either a -2 happiness in non-State Religion Cities or a -1 science from specialists or a flat -25% Science Rate.

Plutocratic- Likely bonuses are +3 Culture from Markets and Supermarkets (or Grocers), or a +1 Happiness from same and +1 Merchants and +1 Artists. Possible penalties are -1 Happiness in Largest Cities or -1 Food/-1 hammers or -1 Culture from Specialists.

Feudalistic- Likely bonuses are +1 Priests and +1 Merchants and either ability to build units with food OR a +3 Culture from Castles and Barracks.

Absolutist- Possible bonuses are +3 hammers from Castles and Monuments, and -25% WW. Penalties could be either a -1 happiness from Jails and Barracks, or -3 Food from Barracks and Jails (or possibly just a -25% food per city).

Libertarian- Likely bonuses are +1 Scientist and +1 Artist. Also possible are +3 Science from Theatres and Broadcast Towers, or +1 happiness from these buildings instead. Possible penalties are a -1 happiness from barracks, Jails and Courthouses.

Socialist- Possible bonuses are a +1 Happiness from Universities and Hospitals, and +3 Food from Grocers and Supermarkets (Welfare State). Possible penalty might be a -1 Gold from Banks, Grocers and Markets.

Fascist- Possible bonuses are +1 Merchant and +1 Scientist, and +3 Culture from Courthouses and Broadcast Towers. Possible Penalties could be a -1 science (or culture) from Libraries and Universities (book burning?)

Anyway, thats a start. What do you guys think?

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[ToV]

My system actually does not have a penalty for Universal Sufferage. I tried to keep things simple, and I did not deviate from the original civics as much as you are. I gave the gold-rush to emancipation and the +100% cottage growth to Universal Sufferage.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hey guys, have some GOOD news to report!!!! I have FINALLY figured out where my StateReligionYieldRate modification was going wrong. On testing, it now seems to be working PERFECTLY!!!! Needless to say I am as happy as Larry. I just want to send thanks to TheLopez, Gerikes and Impaler-you guys have given me such a HUGE amount of advice and assistance, and I could not have come this far without you guys!!!! People, these guys are LEGENDS in the modding community, and I for one am VERY glad to have them around. Anyway, expect to hear more news soon, as I feel like I am making REAL progress now (BuildingYields, BuildingCommerce and StateReligionYieldRate all work-only StateReligionCommerceRate left to check!) Thankyou everyone for your ongoing support and encouragement, and I look forward to feedback on my ideology suggestions above .

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK guys, I have a new update of my progress:

BuildingCommerceChange-DONE.
BuildingYieldChange-DONE.
StateReligionYieldRateModifier-DONE.
StateReligionCommerceRateModifier-DONE.
FreeSpecialistCount-DONE (thanks in no small part to the legendary TheLopez ).
TradeRouteCommerceModifier-DONE up to CvPlayer, only CvCity left to finish.
SpecialistExtraYields-DONE up to CvPlayer, only CvCity left to finish.

Still to do:

NonStateReligionYieldRateModifier; NonStateReligionCommerceRateModifier; StateReligionHealthChange and NonStateReligionHealthChange.

Then, when its all done, I will finally be able to begin work on the new civics system itself-keep your eyes peeled guys!!!

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

NonStateReligionYieldRateModifier; NonStateReligionCommerceRateModifier

What adsactly will these do? Do you get the modifier for every non-StateReligion in the the City? If so that could add up to a huge modifier

To do Health just use my Expanded forms of Commerce mod, it makes Health a Commerce so your existing CommerceMods tags can be utilized to produce the effect. It will also allow BuildingHealth changes, Specialist HealthChanges and any other thing which has Commerce tags on it. The code is ovcourse over in the CCCP search for the "MoreCommerceTypes" tag and you will see every line I've changed or added for it.

Speaking of which is the most resent code avalible here or could you perhaps e-mail it to me.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Funny you should ask me that, Impaler. I had considered the impact of a seperate bonus PER non-state religion, and immediately chose to rule that out for the reason you yourself mentioned. Instead, I hope to make it work on a simple 'if city has a non-state religion, it gets the bonus/penalty, if it doesn't then there is no bonus/penalty'. I don't want the code to look for MULTIPLE non-state religions, just if there are any.
Hope that makes sense. Also, thanks for the advice regarding health-I will take a look. I seriously thought it would be as simple as ReligionHappiness. Am I wrong in this belief?

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, just curious Impaler-which .cpp files have you changed? Might make it easier for me then to make the changes. Thanks muchly-for EVERYTHING-Impaler. You, Gerikes and TheLopez have been absolutely FANTASTIC to me, and I owe my progress to all 3 of you guys.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Holistic]

One aspect of the vanilla Civics that doesn't seem to be reflected by your mod is the obsolescence of the Labor-category when Democracy (and Emancipation) is discovered (and replaced by the Economy-category). I'm unsure whether you'd like to keep it or not, but in some respects this could be mimicked by your Ideology-category with respect to religions (by allowing only a few of them have a state religion).

Any state ideology seems like a really bad fit with any democratic government style (Representation, Universal Suffrage), though. This is one reason why I don't really see the need for ideology category -- another is that most ideologies are already reflected by different Civics-combinations (since really, that's what ideologies are in Civ4 terms -- opinions on which civic combination is the best). I'd really recommend considering either a Military-, Education- or Organisation-category rather than an ideology-category.

Well, anyhow. Ideologies shouldn't appear too early. Liberalism (and its namesake ideology) seems about "right" for a first ideological civic. Whether you intend the ideologies to be late-game complements or replacements for religions or not, I'd recommend including a Free Religion-equivalent ideology (Free Speech?). To become a substitute for religion in diplomatic relations, you'd also need to make leaders able to have (at least) two favorite civics (and preferrably also disliked civics), the other of which is a Ideology civic.

As for names and ideologies that are represented (whether or not you intend for them to replace religions or not), I'd recommend against having Militaristic, Feudalistic, Plutocratic and Absolutist as ideologies. Conservatism and Fundamentalism covers the themes pretty well, especially in combination with whatever other civics are chosen. Liberalism and Libertarian(ism) are quite different concepts, and the former seems to be missing (although the effects you've outlined for Libertarian make a whole lot more sense for a Liberal ideology). With Fascism, Socialism, No state ideology and "Free Speech", that's eight choices in the ideology category. Since you didn't seem to intend for liberatarianism to be included (which it shouldn't, unless Anarchism, Feminism, Green & co are also included, with a proper distinction between Communism & Socialism), it's "really" seven.

For Liberal ideology (available with Liberalism), commerce and culture "should" be stressed at the expense of social order and stability (happiness). Bonus commerce ("general" commerce, not gold) from specialists for a bonus, and extra war weariness or unhappiness from drafting (requires SDK-changes, no?) for a penalty is probably not balanced. State religion should be banned for this ideology.

For Conservative ideology (in its classical sense, anti-Liberalism, available with Liberalism), social order should perhaps be stressed, at the expense of commerce. The happy-bonuses of Militaristic and the specialist penalties of Plutocratic might fit.

Regarding Free Speech (available with Constitution) this really should be used as Dom Pedro II does (?) -- to encourage "democratic" civics and a peaceful playstyle. A slight bonus might of course be in order to distinguish it from having no state ideology, and the culture explosion in ordinary Civ 4 makes a lot of sense. State religion should be banned for this ideology. None for state ideology should allow for a State Religion but otherwise have no effect -- other than balancing democratic government civics.

Socialist ideology should probably stress production at the expense of commerce. One way of doing this is to have Factories, Forges and Coal Plants give extra happiness, and unhappiness (in addition to negative gold) from Markets, Banks and Grocers. State religion should be banned for this ideology.

Fascism is basically conservatism with a populist appeal. Culture-bonuses from Colosseums and Barracks/Stables/Dry Docks, coupled with less war weariness and unhappiness from Libraries, Universities, Theatres (still a net happiness-giver with enough commerce put into culture), foreign citizens and Open Borders with any non-Fascist civ might be something.

Fundamentalist ideology (available with Electricity) should basically make cities with only State Religion never experience any unhappiness, and any non-State Religion cause unhappiness. [Number of religions in your mod + 1] happiness for state religion, and one unhappy for every non-state religion might do the trick. As a tribute to Civ 2, there could be quite hefty penalties to research -- none to be had from scientist (specialists) or science-buildings (except for Libraries (because of the Arab unqiue building)), but some from religious buildings.

On an unrelated note, have you considered using developing civics instead of increasing the number of civics? By developing, I mean civics that improve with Technologies (which could make some civics appear earlier, as well as keep early civics relevant in the end-game). A side effect of this would be that even a civ that never undergoes a revolution would still have different civics in the end of a game than what it started with. Whether that's undue rewards or "fun" I don't know.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

If Ideologies or Civics are going to have Diplomatic penalties, for eample, I'm Communits, your Fachist = -5 relations, then it would make more sense in my opinion to attach that to the Civic itself with some kind of tag like..

(Communism)
<CivicDiplomacyModifiers>
<CivicDiplomacyModifier>
<Civic>Fachism</Civic>
<iDiplomacyModifier>-6</iDiplomacyModifier>
</CivicDiplomacyModifier>
<CivicDiplomacyModifier>
<Civic>Capitalism</Civic>
<iDiplomacyModifier>-4</iDiplomacyModifier>
</CivicDiplomacyModifier>
<CivicDiplomacyModifier>
<Civic>Communism</Civic>
<iDiplomacyModifier>+6</iDiplomacyModifier>
</CivicDiplomacyModifier>
</CivicDiplomacyModifiers>

This would definantly be an improvment over the simple "you have wisley chossen your Civics" which is a simple match up comparison.

 

[Holistic]

Heh, that does make a lot more sense than to attach the Ideology-likes and dislikes to the leaders (the only leaders that really distinguish themselves on "ideological" grounds are Mao & Stalin anyway).

 

[SkippyT]

Sorry for this noob question, but where do I put it? In: "My Civ IV file/Warlords/Assets/XML/GameInfo" and then what? Do I put it in one folder and replace the CIV4CivicInfos XML file or what?

Edit: Looks great though

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Skippy: read some of the toped threads about how to properly use mods, for one never overright your original Assets, use customAssets or a mod folder.

Aussie: You will have to search for the tags I mentioned, several files we altered and a few of these were to fix bugs firaxis had left in, The Commerce index was being checked against the number of Yields. They never noticed it when their were 3 of each.

Personaly I'd recomend that you start using my CCCP as a base from which to do your work. I'm interested in including your current and future work anyways but if you write it directly onto a brach of my code then its much easier to integrate. You'll benifit from some debug logging I just put in and as Ket likes your Civics moding for the XL mod its going to save time in the long run. Me and Ket have already got a nice system of code excahange, he will merges various mods onto a copy of the CCCP, e-mails it to me and I integrate it into the official download. Kind of like a mini CVS.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Thanks for the advice, Impaler, I am DEFINITELY looking into using your CCCP. I have also tracked down your new commerces, but have yet to integrate them. I confess that I have been a little preoccupied with setting up my new computer these last few days, but hope to get back to work on the mod later this week.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Arwon]

A problem with civics and unique buildings in Warlords. Pantheism doesn't appear to give its happiness bonus to Egyptian Obelisks, at least until I went an added a line to the XML. I haven't tested with Zululand and India, but it's possible that Mausoleums and Ikhandas suffer from similar oversights with the relevant civics.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hmmm, thanks for the heads-up, Arwon. I was afraid this might prove to be a problem. So what exactly was the line you added to XML to solve the problem? I am very curious.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Arwon]

My editted XML file for the civics for pantheism:

<BuildingHappinessChanges>
<BuildingHappinessChange>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_OBELISK</BuildingType>
<iHappinessChange>2</iHappinessChange>
</BuildingHappinessChange>
<BuildingHappinessChange>
<BuildingType>BUILDING_EGYPTIAN_OBELISK</BuildingType>
<iHappinessChange>2</iHappinessChange>
</BuildingHappinessChange>
</BuildingHappinessChanges>

It seems you need to treat the unique buildings separately. If you look at the buildinginfos file, there's a difference between "building type" and "building class type" ie, the entry for Monument is this:

<BuildingInfo>
<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_OBELISK</BuildingClass>
<Type>BUILDING_OBELISK</Type>

whereas the Obelisk is

<BuildingInfo>
<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_OBELISK</BuildingClass>
<Type>BUILDING_EGYPTIAN_OBELISK</Type>

You might want to test using the latter, the "class" values for the civics instead of just the type values.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Thanks for that, I will look into this ASAP. Sorry for the screw up guys.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

This actually goes in with the problem I was trying to solve earlier regarding the happiness bonuses given by buildings to other buildings...

Would you like that while I am fixing the bugged buildings bonus modifier that I also change the civics one to be based on building classes instead of building types as well?