The University of Sankore vs. Free Religion?

[Alchemind]

I've been fond of playing religious nuts lately and I haven't really been able to compensate for the enormous benefit of Free Religions 10% science boost, essentially granting a 1 Tech lead for every 10 technologies researched.



+2 science per religious building seems really good, however, I'm still a little uncertain if the benefit equals Free Religions 10% boost or if it ever can. Since Free Religion essentially makes University of Sankore useless it seems like I'm locked into it's strategy if I ever want to continue along my religious-nut ways. In addition I go for the Spiral Miranet as well.

So my question is : Is there some sort of threshold with the amount of religious buildings that can actually match Free Religions science benefit? I'm usually going for Religious victory these days and forcing my religious will unto others so I'd really like to stay converted to one religion and use the Spiral Miranet economy to my advantage.

 

[Doshin]

This sort of question is impossible to answer. Some possible variables:

• What if you need to stay in a religion to foster allies? Or to isolate enemies?
  
  
• What if you can't afford to commit to a religion, because to do so would be too dangerous?
  
  
• If you are running the science slider at 0%, what benefit does Free Religion offer?
  
  
• If you plan to build something other than Monasteries or Temples, what benefit does the UoS offer?
  
  
• If you are focusing on infrastructure, would Organized Religion serve as a better civic?
  
  
• If you are in war mode, would Theocracy serve as a better civic?
  
  
• Are you in the AP religion? Do you intend to build those AP Temples and Monasteries anyway?
  
  
• Have you reached Scientific Method? Have Monasteries expired?
  
  
• Will the +2 per building contribute towards a technology in the medieval, renaissance or industrial era? 2 free science per religious building goes considerably further when you are researching (e.g.) Compass (400 science) than Assembly Line (5000 science).
  
  
• Do you have a strong commercial base, with lots of developed Cottages? Or a weak commercial base, with a large number of Farms and Mines?

And so on.

The most basic answer is that, AP victories aside, religion is best viewed as a tool to manage diplomatic relations. It is usually preferable to stay in a religion than to avoid it via Free Religion, provided that your neighbors (and/or the dominant powers) are running that religion. Organized Religion and Theocracy are therefore better civics than Free Religion, unless you are completely bossing a game.

The UoS is a good build if you have access to Stone and are running the AP religion. If you are running the AP religion and lack Stone, it is a so-so build. If you have Stone but are not running the AP religion, it is a so-so build. If you lack both, it is not worth the investment.

All of the above also applies (mutatis mutandis) to the Spiral Minaret, with a few further considerations and nuances (e.g. it is better to generate than , but Divine Right offers less to the player than Paper).

 

[traius]

Why do you think it is better to run gold than beakers, doshin? I would not have guessed that, that's for sure.
EDIT: Nevermind, I assume it is because gold can be converted to Beakers OR EP's OR Culture or just gold, if that's what you want.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

All I can say, is that the University of Sankore is a disappointing wonder given the cost, unless your empire is quite large and presumably stuck between wars (low slider, less foreign trade routes).

Caveat: before Scientific Method it offers a considerable boost between temples and monasteries. Losing the latter cripples the wonder and it becomes increasingly lackluster in terms of absolute returns.

So I guess what I'm saying is that Free Religion is usually better. I'm sure doshin's post is exhaustive; hammers from the AP way FAR more heavily in the balance than the science.

 

[Thrar]

Keep in mind that the 10% from FR are simply added to the other multipliers. At that point in the game, you're likely to have 25% (library) almost everywhere and 50% (libraries+unis) in the commerce cities.

Given those multipliers, the +2 from UoS become +3 already. For cities generating less than 30 base science (25 with library only), that's better than FR. At that point in the game, it's quite possible that only a small part of your empire (e.g. capital and 2 or 3 commerce centers) exceed those 30.

 

[Doshin]

Why do you think it is better to run gold than beakers, doshin? I would not have guessed that, that's for sure.
EDIT: Nevermind, I assume it is because gold can be converted to Beakers OR EP's OR Culture or just gold, if that's what you want.

Yep, it's mainly because gold is more flexible. Another small point of note is that neither the or generated by the SM/UoS are subject to Bureaucracy bonuses. If you generate +40 across your empire, that's all you get (with Library/University/Observatory boosts, of course). HOWEVER! If you generate +40 across your empire, this will effectively allow you to raise the science slider by 10% (or 20% or 10% every other turn or whatever...) which means that revenue from across your empire gets channeled back to your capital via the slider. This, more often than not, has a Library, University, Observatory, and Oxford.

If you build Wall Street and not Oxford, I guess you could make the reverse argument. But how often does that happen?

 

[stoferb]

Late game free religion is obviously better. But before scientific method and with many small cities and lot's of temples and monestaries already built for other reasons (culture pressure, AP-hammers e.t.c.) the UoS can be better. Problem being only that it comes so late and is so expensive to build.

 

[Manco Capac]

Doshin - 666 posts. Hmmm.

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Sankore and SM wonders depend of how huge an empire is (and if it is, then just win the map jeez) and are accompanying dishes to AP boosted monasteries, temples, shrine and great temples.
It makes the first two even better in payback with the that religious trio.

Otherwise, Sankore is an interesting failgold alternative...especially given the AI is not urged to self-tech Paper, thus leaving time to milk some gold...which returns are faster!

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

Why do you think it is better to run gold than beakers, doshin? I would not have guessed that, that's for sure.
EDIT: Nevermind, I assume it is because gold can be converted to Beakers OR EP's OR Culture or just gold, if that's what you want.

I am not sure if you have just confused the words or are confused about the concepts but I will point out that Gold cannot be converted (directly) into Beakers, Culture, Gold or EP's. Commerce can, but that is not the same as Gold. If this is new or confusing information try looking at the chart in my sig. It is important to distinguish Gold from Commerce.

Building Gold can however allow you to raised the slider thus allowing you to create more beakers, but this is an indirect relationship. This links back to Doshin's response.

 

[damerell]

I am not sure if you have just confused the words or are confused about the concepts but I will point out that Gold cannot be converted (directly) into Beakers, Culture, Gold or EP's.

Surely it is obvious that traius knows this and merely means that the gold can support deficit slider settings.

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

I suppose I could reply that it was obvious that that was not obvious to me, but that doesn't really get us anywhere.

Given his surprise at the utility of building gold instead of beakers it seemed unclear, particularly given the wording of his post. I even tried to preempt the need of a post saying that he knows this already by choosing my words in a most non-aggressive or presumptive way thereby indicating that I understand that he could very well know it but I could not very well know if he knew. But alas, it was not to be.

I stand, eternally and cyberly, corrected . . .