This is why you can't count on neighbors for religion... xD

[Matthew.]

I think you guys are being a bit mean by continuing to bring this up every time he says anything.

Actually I haven't really mentioned it at all, nor am I trying to be mean. The only reason I keep pressing the issue, is I don't know how many times I specifically mentioned early aggressive attacks, and responses are completely aside from it.

The hilarious part, at least to me, is I actually agree with you guys 100% on the religion thing. If you dig deep enough in the interwebs, you'll find plenty of my rants on this website arguing Celts are not trash-tier which a lot of people say, but solid mid-tier specifically because they can support wide empires with easy/easier religion. Religion is one of the few tools to make relatively peaceful wide play an option without completely sucking.

Not once have I said anything otherwise in this entire thread. What I did say, is you aren't achieving map control while also playing the religion game, not without massive RNG help swinging in your favor.

If you are playing wide and peaceful, that isn't what I'm talking about.

If you are planning some later game military push, that isn't what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is breaking an early neighbor or two or five before they can present a later threat down the road. If Shaka or Alexander or both starts next to you, even on Immortal, you have a choice to make. You can let them do their thing, which will inevitably become a headache later on, even on Immortal, or you can break them before they get going. If you choose to do so, you won't have time to invest into a religion. Form it off of a shrine, okay, perhaps, but in no way are you enhancing a religion and purchasing a bunch of Pagoda's while also pumping out military. And by the time you can, it is too late in the game to get the same benefits of religion.

That is called opportunity cost. This is also, in a round-about way, the same reason why peaceful wide play lags behind both peaceful tall, and aggressive wide, because playing wide throws you into wars anyway and it is difficult to play the line down the middle. If you focus on infrastructure, you were better off staying tall and small. If you focus on military, you were better off just breaking your neighbors right away.

Anyway, in case there was any confusion I meant absolutely no hostility in this thread. I just get worked up a bit when people twist my words

 

[inthesomeday]

On deity, you'll be getting ruins that are in a rough first expand-size ring of your capital with infinity scouts. One more scout than usual doesn't help anybody. The shrine is a perfectly okay investment; we build granaries, don't we? We build monuments? God of the Open Sky, or Oral Tradition, or sometimes even Sacred Path? All better than a monument. Sun God and Goddess of the Hunt both around equal to a granary usually in the long run, and for less hammers. The shrine is a fairly cheap building that makes a pantheon likely, and pantheon bonuses are usually good enough for the minute hammer investment.

Celts are great, T1 or T2 IMO.

The number of games where there's nothing to do but early war are fewer than the number of games in which the best thing to do is build yourself up. So saying that it's uncommon, or less often, that the religion is worth it, doesn't really make much sense overall especially as it's true that you're referring only to early war situations.

No hostility on either side, I'm sure.

 

[danaphanous]

I think we understand each other then Matthew. I agree with everything you just said. Going wide you get into wars so if you plan to battle a lot early to deal with that problem rather then juggle the danger and hope for the best, a religion can be a distraction. I frequently play very good peaceful wide games but it is a juggling match early unless I completely subjugate some neighbors--I would say a strong early military is certainly a more certain strategy but I tend to like the vulnerability of juggling religion and REX at the same time, it's a personal thing though and I realize that. I was struck by how much easier it was with my latest Aztec game when I just conquered the Huns rather then let them build to do my thing. I now have the room to easily plant 10 cities with no competition for a while. Luckily Uluru means I get a strong religion too, but most games you'd probably have to make a priority choice of troops or shrine in your early expos.

Just for the information of blitz I'll lay out some ways I've found religion to be different in Deity level:

1. Many AI go for religion, games where there aren't 5 relatively fast contenders are rare.
2. If you can't found by turn 80 there is a high chance you may just lose on even the 5th religion and all your effort will be wasted on some games if you built shrines. Faith is still useful but this will set you back. In my experience even REXing wide to 7 cities and building shrines second in your expos you will lose the religion race without help from something else. This is why I recommend not trying if you find yourself without good alternate faith sources.
3. The first pantheons are usually founded far quicker and many AI go piety meaning they get double faith from their shrines
4. The AI take faith pantheons more frequently meaning even if you have good dirt for faith they may steal the one that would've worked for you. Thus synergy with faith pantheons is not as sure. On deity I sometimes even slow growth for a few turns to build that shrine as fast as possible if I see my dirt is good for a certain pantheon, otherwise you'll end up with a long string of Pantheons beating you and be way behind. Some people say this isn't worth it--I do it anyway. Shrine is cheap and 2 turns slower on growth to 3 pop is acceptable for a strong pantheon. From experience I've learned if I think hurrying the shrine will pay off.
5. AI start with 2 cities meaning the piety guys soon get 4 faith without even settling. Nearly every piety guy will beat you to a religion for this reason which does not happen on immortal if you have good faith dirt. For this reason it's possible to get a game where the religion all vanish by turn 80 as I mentioned above.
6. You need more fpt to found. On immortal building 4 shrines was enough to get 5th religion. On Deity even 6 shrines may not be enough. I try to get my faith rate to 6 early otherwise you are gambling and may lose. I got up to 6 fpt one game by turn 15 and still was the 5th religion. For this reason you have to settle with founding later and cut the risks as Matthew says. It's often viable but there is uncertainty. By the time I get my pantheon I can usually tell if I'll get a religion and if I think I can't I pick the strongest pantheon I can and don't try.

All this happens because on Deity the AI get 2 cities immediately and start with pottery and shrines available. Any civ with a religious rolled flavor will soon get 4 fpt for this reason. It's dumb but it's the way it is.

Despite all these hardships it still isn't too hard to get a religion,but there is more risk. On immortal if you start near 2 stone you get stone circles and win. On Deity you could start near desert and see desert folklore go on turn 9. Start near 4 stone and see stone circles vanish turn 15. You just never know what will happen as every AI gets first pick if they want it on pantheons and more of them found early meaning choices vanish.

 

[danaphanous]

sugardady, you'll be amused at my luck on this Aztec game.

I was testing the viability of Aztecs for early rush on high levels. I totally did nothing but crank out early jaguars. Found uluru, found 2 faith CS, one of them first, found a spearman upgrade, got archery as a free tech. Then cranked out some archers and conquered my neighbor the Huns empire with them in an early rush before turn 50. Picked sacred path for the 20 hexes of jungle near me, sent settler to uluru, popped great prophet ruin. lol.

I got all the luck this game. I'm gonna be the first founding religion--first time ever with Aztecs and have control of the space of two empire to settle while I invested nothing in religion. I'm planning to build a huge 10-city liberty empire and just rule the north of this continents. This game is by no means a typical example--best religious game I've ever played!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Well that makes some sense. I actually micro my tiles pretty harshly in most of my games so that I push out my shrine fast. I'll even push my second scout and build the shrine before if I see a pair of stone or marble bc stone circles seems to be a popular pantheon even on immortal. I'll do the same with a lot of desert tiles bc a desert flavored AI almost always takes that pantheon.

I'm not sure if it's because the "Let's Play" series I've watched are extremely high level players, but it seems like most of the other dirt-faith pantheons are able to land you a founded religion even on deity. I don't see a lot of playthroughs where a bunch of shrines are built in expos to get a religion. I mean, even as a spectator, I can tell that you'd be WAY too late to get a religion that way on deity lol.

It seems like my observations are fairly accurate, though, since you're saying it isn't too hard despite the deity AI bonuses. But it's definitely good to know these things before my jump to deity. Thanks for your response!

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[Kriogen]

About spreading religion on Deity.

In my last game on Deity, Heile "attacked" me with 5 Great Prophets. Not 5 Gprs from start to finish, a carpet of 5 prophets at the same time near my border.

And yes, he also had missionaries.

 

[beetle]

...You've read my other posts, you know I specifically was talking about putting religion aside for aggressive play with fast universities... You may be building a single shrine, but you aren't mass building shrines and you certainly aren't building temples, not without giving up map control... If you found on turn 80, that leaves you with 70 turns to work with. Let us consider another 300 faith to enhance, 1,200 minimum for 6 pagoda purchases, and another 200-500 to help the initial spread. You aren't getting that in 70 turns off of a single shrine and a couple stone circle quarries.

But you can get all that off a single shrine and faith dirt! The single shrine gets you a pantheon. The pantheon gets the first GPr. They you buy the faith buildings as they become available. In addition to the +2 happiness, those Pagodas generate more faith than they cost. Plus the pantheon is still paying out. I rarely buy missionaries, and the next GPr spawn only because my religion has passively spread to my cities and no more faith buildings are available for faith purchase.

There is no reason why a single shrine, and building your national religion, should interfere with map control. There is no trade off. Religion is about adding a play aspect to your game.

If you do play that way and insist religious dominance with map control by turn 150 is "ezpz 80% of my games I play", then by all means, post those screenies.

What do you mean by “religious dominance”? Founding and having your religion dominant in your cities is compatible with map control. Aggressively spreading your religion outside your borders is something completely different.

Turn 150, you with map control, several of your cities under your enhanced religion... Do all that now with only a single shrine.

Okay, if this is all you mean by “religious dominance”, then yes you can do that all with a single shrine while clearing your continent by T150. The byzantium CDG has examples of just that, and with terrible dirt with a tough neighbor.

Whatever. You founded a religion. Congratulations. What are you going to do with it now? Let it fade and die? That is an option, but I don't see why you would be making this many replies here if that is all you do with it. At that point you may as well just settle the prophet for the fpt.

After founding from that single shrine, play the game as usual. Your religion in your Holy City will not fade and die, since its own internal pressure like 30. Even surrounded Holy Cites rarely loose their native religion. If you exercise “map control” as you say, then foreign influence are not an issue. By T150, you are killing the cities near you, that includes civilians like missionaries and GPr does it not?

No, you try and benefit from it... So how are you going to support it off of a single shrine? You aren't. Two stone circles and a shrine is still another 60 turns to spawn a second prophet, another 40 for a single missionary.

Yes, you are. Hopefully you have picked up a couple more quarries in your expos. Ideally I go with Mosques because they pay back the faith faster. But with your example, 40 turns later I buy a Pagoda (not a missionary), so now I am at 7 fpt. Thirty turns later my religion has probably spread to the next city, so another Pagoda, and now I am at 9 fpt. Twenty turns after that, another city has converted and I buy another Pagoda. So in 90 turns, that is 3 cities with Pagodas, 11 fpt, 6 cpt, 5 gpt. All from a single shrine and two quarries. From passive pressure alone, I would expect all my founded cities within 10 tiles of my Holy City to be of my faith by that point.

Is it really that confusing? If you don't invest into the religion, it goes nowhere. If you do, you aren't getting map control.

Map control (which I am going to read as “clearing your starting continent” makes it unnecessary to invest into the religion. So without further investment (that is, without missionaries, shrines, or temples) your religion blooms. Passive pressure takes care of the spread, and faith buildings more than pay back their faith cost.

It is actually more complicated without map control.

Turn 150 is because that is a competitive time to enter industrial, or close to it. A more conservative number is closer to 160. Regardless, you aren't investing into religion after that point. Mathematically you aren't getting any returns. You purchase a mosque for 400 faith, in another 100 turns you've made back 300 faith and the game is over.

I agree that you want to buying faith buildings early. Which is easier if you found and catch one. But maybe “map control” means hitting that early benchmark to enter Industrial without killing your neighbors? Even in that scenario, founding still makes sense. You get have the shrine, two quarries, and pagoda in just your Holy City. So at least 5 fpt that you would not have otherwise. Play the religious game in your other cities the way you would normally, that is, faith purchasing whatever buildings foreign religions offer. That single early shrine is giving, at a minimum, 750 extra faith for your game. Even if you do nothing else ever with religion.

Form it off of a shrine, okay, perhaps, but in no way are you enhancing a religion and purchasing a bunch of Pagoda's while also pumping out military.

Sure you are. The one has nothing to do with the other. After the first shrine, the faith game is not costing hammers and is net positive gold (assuming you catch a faith building). Each pagoda generates more faith than it costs. Enhancing is only after faith buildings (domestic and foreign) and only because your faith generation is so high that the GPr spawn before you can start saving for GS or GE.

Are you going to grab a religion with a single shrine?

Yes, exactly. That single shrine is enough to get you a pantheon in probably nine out of ten Deity games. If you can get to 4 fpt (that is, for example, just two quarries), then 50 turns later, that is the 200 faith you need to spawn a GPr. Lots of RNG involved, mostly around which AI are in the game, but yes, that is all it takes to grab a religion with a single shrine, on Deity, half the time (maybe more).

The opportunity cost of building an early shrine is 1-2 Ancient Ruins and whole lotta 15 gold from CSs instead of 30.

That would be the opportunity cost of shrine before scout. Which, I agree, would be quite terrible. But that is not even an option -- since you need to research Pottery first.

The opportunity cost of building an early monument is 1-2 Ancient Ruins and whole lotta 15 gold from CSs instead of 30.

Shrine after two scouts. Monument after shrine. Skip the shrine if initial scouting reveals you can get a pantheon without it. Skip the monument if Tradition and you hit a culture ruin.

In my last game on Deity, Heile "attacked" me with 5 Great Prophets. Not 5 Gprs from start to finish, a carpet of 5 prophets at the same time near my border.

Right after getting you to sign a DoF no doubt! Reload back a few turns, skip the DoF. See if the carpet shows, and if it does, collect them all!

 

[ShakaKhan]

In more than half of the games they are one and the same. Getting a Pantheon will give you Faith from lux tiles or certain terrains or even changing a good natural wonder into a faith factory. And that means almost zero opportunity cost in getting a religion. I already listed all the pantheons that give Faith to Lux and terrain tiles which you likely already know.

But to each their own. If you win games and enjoy not going for religion, then keep on keeping on. But religion has almost zero opportunity cost in a majority of my games.

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Sorry for the delayed response, can't check in every day!

First, it's not that I enjoy missing out in founding a religion, rather that on deity it is somewhat commonplace to encounter games where you're not going to found one. I may encounter this more than most because I play with huts off, so no free faith, and I play on small maps (because otherwise during late-game, I may as well take a nap between turns and my friggin' machine can heat my apartment) so there's only 4 religions available instead of 5. Someone's gonna build HS, so only 3 left. If Ethiopia or the celts are in the game, only 2 or 1 left. Which may mean that if just one AI catches a good faith pantheon or settles a religious mountain, they're all gone. Plus there's numerous piety AI, and they seem to wrap that up pretty quick. All in all, I've had several games where all religions are gone by turn 75 or so. THE POINT IS... I used to be one of the players who needed to found every game and rage-quit when I missed. After finishing my first game where I didn't found a religion (which, btw, wasn't with a god-tier civ, if memory serves it was the Ottomans), I realized that founding isn't that important, the game finished on par with my other games.

Second, I understand your point that there are games where founding a religion comes with very little opportunity cost. I've enjoyed several of them. However, there are many games where this isn't the case. Just about everyone reading this knows how to take advantage of a religion when it's handed to them. Significantly less of the people reading this know how to proceed or are willing to proceed when they can't found.

There's also the matter that on deity level, the map can scream, "RELIGION!!" at you but you miss the opportunity, or rather it was never there. Just because there's several religious CS's near you doesn't mean that they are going to give you quests that are feasible early game. Or, more frequently and CONSIDERABLY more annoying, maybe the map gives you a 4 city tradition game where every single tile in all cities is useable desert, but the AI start chain-pushing the pantheons until, inevitably, there goes DF. Now in this situation, what do you do? Do you look for a secondary faith pantheon and try to found? I think it's a much better option to let a missionary come in who has the DF-based religion, spread that across your empire, and buy a half dozen GS's as soon as you finish rationalism.

This game has a lot of depth to it, then you learn a new trick or a different viable strategy, and it's as if there's a whole new dimension to the game. Learning to play without founding a religion can really broaden the game's horizons.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Sorry for the delayed response, can't check in every day!

First, it's not that I enjoy missing out in founding a religion, rather that on deity it is somewhat commonplace to encounter games where you're not going to found one. I may encounter this more than most because I play with huts off, so no free faith, and I play on small maps (because otherwise during late-game, I may as well take a nap between turns and my friggin' machine can heat my apartment) so there's only 4 religions available instead of 5. Someone's gonna build HS, so only 3 left. If Ethiopia or the celts are in the game, only 2 or 1 left. Which may mean that if just one AI catches a good faith pantheon or settles a religious mountain, they're all gone. Plus there's numerous piety AI, and they seem to wrap that up pretty quick. All in all, I've had several games where all religions are gone by turn 75 or so. THE POINT IS... I used to be one of the players who needed to found every game and rage-quit when I missed. After finishing my first game where I didn't found a religion (which, btw, wasn't with a god-tier civ, if memory serves it was the Ottomans), I realized that founding isn't that important, the game finished on par with my other games.

Second, I understand your point that there are games where founding a religion comes with very little opportunity cost. I've enjoyed several of them. However, there are many games where this isn't the case. Just about everyone reading this knows how to take advantage of a religion when it's handed to them. Significantly less of the people reading this know how to proceed or are willing to proceed when they can't found.

There's also the matter that on deity level, the map can scream, "RELIGION!!" at you but you miss the opportunity, or rather it was never there. Just because there's several religious CS's near you doesn't mean that they are going to give you quests that are feasible early game. Or, more frequently and CONSIDERABLY more annoying, maybe the map gives you a 4 city tradition game where every single tile in all cities is useable desert, but the AI start chain-pushing the pantheons until, inevitably, there goes DF. Now in this situation, what do you do? Do you look for a secondary faith pantheon and try to found? I think it's a much better option to let a missionary come in who has the DF-based religion, spread that across your empire, and buy a half dozen GS's as soon as you finish rationalism.

This game has a lot of depth to it, then you learn a new trick or a different viable strategy, and it's as if there's a whole new dimension to the game. Learning to play without founding a religion can really broaden the game's horizons.

I agree with everything you said. I just think it happens a little more frequently than a lot of people are making it out to. Like more than half. Having watched several dozen deity "Let's Play" vids and seeing the responses of deity players in this thread, I think I'm not far off. But I really do think we all agree on the conditions that make going for a religion "worth it".