This is why you can't count on neighbors for religion... xD

[beetle]

The opportunity cost plus the risk/reward just isn't worth it. Even when you do found one, you may miss out on the good beliefs anyway.

The opportunity cost is getting your monument or first archer later. Yes, there is a cost to that. About one in ten deity games, an AI will enhance before I have a pantheon. That means I have wasted 7-8 early turns building something of almost no worth. Yes, that is pretty crippling. If you avoid the early shrine because the risk that one in ten games you don't get a pantheon, well that at least is assessing the risk part accurately.

But just run the math on getting a pantheon. You will always be able to pick something that buffs your dirt -- because God King is always available as a last resort. What is the minimum number of turns you can expect to benefit from pantheon. I think 50 turns is conservative.

Just to have round numbers, lets say the shrine completes at T20, takes 30 turns to spawn a pantheon, and provides God King for 50 turns to T100.

The shrine cost you 40 hammers and 80 gold in maintenance, providing 80 faith.
God King got you 50 hammers, 50 gold, 50 faith, 50 Culture, and 50 beakers.

At T100, for the 30 gold, your net gain is 10 hammers, 130 faith, 50 culture, and 50 beakers. How is that not a good reward for your investment?

And that is without founding. On a standard map with the standard number of civs, it is impossible to miss out on the good beliefs -- because there are plenty of them! Founding is a bonus in addition to the pantheon benefits.

But say chopping stonehenge or mass building shrines? Way too many resources for my play style.

I agree that both of those are high risk approaches, and a poor choice for most Deity games most of the time.

The OP even admits in most scenarios it will be well past turn 80 before you get religion online... hell by that time I could have doubled my empire size, my worker count, and eliminated a border rival.

A T80 religion is about average in my experience. But after the building the shrine, you play the same as always. No special actions at all. The faith accumulation is all passive. So, absolutely, double your empire size, worker count, and eliminate a border rival in the meantime.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Matthew plays on deity. Your response of playing "fairly aggressively and get a religion, too" was to him. I'm pointing out that it's more feasible at a lower level than it is on his. But the fact that people do play at different levels and approach the game differently makes it hard to engage in discussion sometimes. That was something I pointed out in the "...That's it - Liberty is complete utter worthless trash" thread.

This is true. The reason I keep bringing it up, though is because several of the comments on here were about "the higher difficulty levels". But to be fair, I watch a lot of the deity players on YouTube and they often get religions while also playing quite aggressively.

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[Matthew.]

The opportunity cost of a pantheon is a single archer (for the single shrine in the cap).

Sure, to start generating 1 faith per turn. But you and I both know that doesn't form a religion. The cost only goes up from there. A shrine in 5 different cities? That is damn near an army itself through opportunity cost.

Again, I feel the need to categorize two different scenarios. Building a single shrine and then letting OP desert folklore carry your religion game is completely different than building a shrine... and then building more shrines, and hoping you can get enough faith to put together a GP.

I mean you guys are smart, I know I don't need to clarify it any more than that.

Those turns are spent doing exactly what you said. Getting a couple shrines online and working the faith point tiles do not stop you from stealing workers, chopping settlers, buying a couple archers, etc.

Sure. And you can open up with Piety and still win. Or not take Rationalism and still win.

Again, I'm just talking about my own experiences. The games where I completely ignore the religion mechanics unless they are given to me and just absorb whatever neighbor religions give me often go smoother and faster than the alternative.

I mean you can tell me "there is little to no opportunity cost, it will play out the same but better", yet I've played way too many games of Civ 5, and comparing the various results, it just isn't true.

Another way to look at it is you have x number of turns before universities. You cannot build and get everything in those number of turns unless you delay universities, so you need to cut out certain things. Taking a look at your options, or rather my options for how I play, shrines and temples are high up on the list of things to cut.

I've been pretty flexible on the whole to each his own thing when it comes to play style, but if discussing universities I will argue up and down that Education is the single most important tech in the game and it is near impossible to make up any lost time delaying them for other options. I know this is diverting the topic a bit, but perhaps it will explain my perspective. I go into every game with the goal of hitting universities by a certain benchmark. I remain flexible with everything else. If I clear a camp and get a faith CS ally, great, I will run with it. If I cannot muster enough faith and it is time for uni's, then scrap it, no religion. After Education, I'm already moving towards industrial and looking to use faith for GP, plus the chances of religions still being around that late in the game starts to get slim.

Yet another way to look at it with that same point: Ethiopia/Maya have very high chances of using self-found religions in their games with little sacrifice, yet both don't top the very top of tier lists. Why? Because it has been established that religion is not a replacement for a strong growth/science game. On that same logic, if you are delaying any kind of growth or science to form a religion (including horizontal growth, if done right), then chances are you aren't coming out ahead.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Another way to look at it is you have x number of turns before universities. You cannot build and get everything in those number of turns unless you delay universities, so you need to cut out certain things. Taking a look at your options, or rather my options for how I play, shrines and temples are high up on the list of things to cut.

I've been pretty flexible on the whole to each his own thing when it comes to play style, but if discussing universities I will argue up and down that Education is the single most important tech in the game and it is near impossible to make up any lost time delaying them for other options. I know this is diverting the topic a bit, but perhaps it will explain my perspective. I go into every game with the goal of hitting universities by a certain benchmark. I remain flexible with everything else. If I clear a camp and get a faith CS ally, great, I will run with it. If I cannot muster enough faith and it is time for uni's, then scrap it, no religion. After Education, I'm already moving towards industrial and looking to use faith for GP, plus the chances of religions still being around that late in the game starts to get slim.

Yet another way to look at it with that same point: Ethiopia/Maya have very high chances of using self-found religions in their games with little sacrifice, yet both don't top the very top of tier lists. Why? Because it has been established that religion is not a replacement for a strong growth/science game. On that same logic, if you are delaying any kind of growth or science to form a religion (including horizontal growth, if done right), then chances are you aren't coming out ahead.

That's really not the same thing at all. Building a couple of shrines when there is hardly anything else to build does not compare to delaying universities. A couple turns of difference in growth from working higher production tiles to get the shine out is hardly game-breaking. Even if you could argue that a granary or archer is absolutely essential doesn't change the fact that the benefits of areligion could far outweigh the delay in getting them.

You could have played a quintillion games and it doesn't change the fact that there is little to nothing sacrificed in building 1 2 or even 3 shrines at the point in the game where it actually matters to get a religion (with the exception of early domination runs where religion is hardly even a thought). I've played enough games and watched enough high level deity playthroughs to know that there are very few games where getting your own religion requires some kind of game breaking tradeoff. The benefits often far outweigh any meager sacrifice. That being said, if I see 4 pantheons get blown away before I even finish my first shrine, it's clear that I'll probably not get a religion... but God King pantheon still makes up for my 1 shrine investment.

And much depends on your playstyle. For example, even Acken suggests that wide Liberty empires delay Education in favor of getting workshops up first before going for universities. The idea that there's some hard and fast rule for all games simply isn't true. That being said I will absolutely concede that there are games where founding a religion may not be more beneficial. I've won an immortal game cultural Victory without building one shrine as China. Actually I forgot about that one when I first posted that all my no religion games end up going badly. But in a vast majority of games I just simply don't see how it's more beneficial to skip founding a religion.

 

[beetle]

Sure, to start generating 1 faith per turn. But you and I both know that doesn't form a religion.

Right, that 1fpt is just for the pantheon.

A shrine in 5 different cities? That is damn near an army itself through opportunity cost.

Agreed, I am not recommending that at all.

Building a single shrine and then letting OP desert folklore carry your religion game...

It is not just Desert Folklore. Stone Circles, Dance of the Aurora, and One with Nature all work well enough to catch a religion.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Right, that 1fpt is just for the pantheon.


Agreed, I am not recommending that at all.


It is not just Desert Folklore. Stone Circles, Dance of the Aurora, and One with Nature all work well enough to catch a religion.

Don't forget Earth Mother which is huge on several different map rolls, Goddess of Festivals, Religious Idols (which helped me in several recent games), and Tears of the Gods (which gave me 5 faith per turn immediately in my last game as Babylon). Also, even if you can't get a religion, there are several pantheons that can greatly help growth, culture, or production.

But I should keep an open mind about these things. Since a deity player suggests it, maybe I'll see how a few games go where I forego religion unless it's glaringly obvious.

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[Matthew.]

That being said, if I see 4 pantheons get blown away before I even finish my first shrine, it's clear that I'll probably not get a religion...

Well that is kind of the point. The original discussion is about self-founded religion vs. absorbing surrounding religions, not whether or not you build a single shrine for a pantheon. So you build a shrine, get 3rd or 4th in line for pantheon, then what?

If you don't get essentially a free religion from natural wonders or faith pantheons (yes, Beetle, I'm well aware there are other faith pantheons ), you have a choice to make. You can either try and brute force it, or you can just say screw it and absorb what you can from other religions.

That is where the cost comes in.

For example, even Acken suggests that wide Liberty empires delay Education in favor of getting workshops up first before going for universities.

Sure, I will often do the same thing. It doesn't change the point. Now you have workshops to fit in before universities. If you weren't going to build temples before, you certainly aren't going to do so in favor of workshops, especially if you delayed Education for workshops. On a side note, the reason why this works is because you aren't really delaying universities for it; the combination of horizontal growth and extra hammers means you are more or less finishing universities around the same time. You won't have gold to rush-purchase uni's in 6+ cities, so hammers become more important.

And no, there isn't some hard and fast rule. Hence why I said, I've been pretty open to other play styles. But delaying universities is a very bad idea. At some point you got to put play style aside and look at raw numbers, and universities give the largest jump in tech rate more than any other science tech. Even NC. The benefits of a religion cannot compete with the jump (and remember, we are mostly talking founders beliefs, because you still get benefits of religions when you don't found).

The number of games was only to point out that I'm not basing this off of speculation. For example sometimes we will get someone trashing on Liberty because after playing 95% Tradition games, they will give Liberty a try, fail, and come to the conclusion it just doesn't work.

Kriogen earlier pretty much summed up the conclusion. You compare the two types of games (not including the shrine into desert folklore type of games) and see the results.

If anyone is bored, we can even turn this into a community thing. Someone can post a save file of a start without access to nearly free religions, and people can post their results. Can be on Immortal, since that is probably where most here play at. If you think the benefits of working in shrines and/or temples into a build order is worth it, play the game out that way. For those of us who argue otherwise, we can do the same.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Well that is kind of the point. The original discussion is about self-founded religion vs. absorbing surrounding religions, not whether or not you build a single shrine for a pantheon. So you build a shrine, get 3rd or 4th in line for pantheon, then what?

If you don't get essentially a free religion from natural wonders or faith pantheons (yes, Beetle, I'm well aware there are other faith pantheons ), you have a choice to make. You can either try and brute force it, or you can just say screw it and absorb what you can from other religions.

That is where the cost comes in.



Sure, I will often do the same thing. It doesn't change the point. Now you have workshops to fit in before universities. If you weren't going to build temples before, you certainly aren't going to do so in favor of workshops, especially if you delayed Education for workshops. On a side note, the reason why this works is because you aren't really delaying universities for it; the combination of horizontal growth and extra hammers means you are more or less finishing universities around the same time. You won't have gold to rush-purchase uni's in 6+ cities, so hammers become more important.

And no, there isn't some hard and fast rule. Hence why I said, I've been pretty open to other play styles. But delaying universities is a very bad idea. At some point you got to put play style aside and look at raw numbers, and universities give the largest jump in tech rate more than any other science tech. Even NC. The benefits of a religion cannot compete with the jump (and remember, we are mostly talking founders beliefs, because you still get benefits of religions when you don't found).

The number of games was only to point out that I'm not basing this off of speculation. For example sometimes we will get someone trashing on Liberty because after playing 95% Tradition games, they will give Liberty a try, fail, and come to the conclusion it just doesn't work.

Kriogen earlier pretty much summed up the conclusion. You compare the two types of games (not including the shrine into desert folklore type of games) and see the results.

If anyone is bored, we can even turn this into a community thing. Someone can post a save file of a start without access to nearly free religions, and people can post their results. Can be on Immortal, since that is probably where most here play at. If you think the benefits of working in shrines and/or temples into a build order is worth it, play the game out that way. For those of us who argue otherwise, we can do the same.

Well I never build temples and I would imagine that all 5 religions would be gone on deity by the time you access them without derailing tech path. You simply don't need to do that to reliably get a religion nor do you need to build more than one or two shrines in most games to get a religion.

As beetle already said, there are many pantheons that provide enough faith to get a religion. So many that it is actually much more rare to roll a map that can't benefit from one of them. And if you do roll a start that can benefit from a pantheon to get faith, it is rare that the AI will take it bc it is rare for there to be multiple starting positions with the same lux bonuses. That's what I've been saying all along. You simply don't need to brute force religion in most games. Really I think it's odd for anyone who has played so many games to think that it is so. Here's the list of pantheons that provide plenty of faith:

Dance of the Aurora
Desert Folklore
Earth Mother (3 different resources benefit)
Goddess of Festivals (2 different resources)
Religious Idols (2 different resources)
Stone Circles (2 different resources)
Tears of the Sun (2 different resources)

That's 11 different resources and 2 different terrain types. Add to that the natural wonder that gives faith, the One with Nature pantheon that transforms any natural wonder into a faith machine, and the possibility of rolling a faith based leader... I mean... just how many games do you think you would have to brute force religion??? I've already conceded that in games where faith would be hard to get that I would forego trying to found a religion. But that just isn't that many games. Like i said, though, I will more harshly judge the need for religion in my next few games to see how it works out.

As an aside, I prefer liberty [emoji41] . Been reading the "liberty is trash" thread for a few laughs.

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[Matthew.]

Decided to play a game tonight. Started a game as Russia on Immortal. Welp, I popped a writing ruin the very turn pottery got done, so I chopped GL into NC so I didn't even get a pantheon until very late . I knew it was going to be something like this, either starting near two faith naturals or whatever, just so it would be an outlier game and couldn't use it as a practical example.

I don't disagree there aren't several faith pantheons, but on Immortal and especially Deity you aren't getting first without a lot of luck, nor are you even getting first found without extra help. The stars need to align just right to get religion, enough military for either offense or defense, and uni's up by 120.

Is it possible? Sure. Reliable? Hell no. What is reliable, is focusing on things you can control, like military or science benchmarks. I'll focus on the things I can control first. If the stars align and an opportunity presents itself, much like my current Russia game and getting GL, then I'll take it.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Decided to play a game tonight. Started a game as Russia on Immortal. Welp, I popped a writing ruin the very turn pottery got done, so I chopped GL into NC so I didn't even get a pantheon until very late . I knew it was going to be something like this, either starting near two faith naturals or whatever, just so it would be an outlier game and couldn't use it as a practical example.

I don't disagree there aren't several faith pantheons, but on Immortal and especially Deity you aren't getting first without a lot of luck, nor are you even getting first found without extra help. The stars need to align just right to get religion, enough military for either offense or defense, and uni's up by 120.

Is it possible? Sure. Reliable? Hell no. What is reliable, is focusing on things you can control, like military or science benchmarks. I'll focus on the things I can control first. If the stars align and an opportunity presents itself, much like my current Russia game and getting GL, then I'll take it.

Not sure what you're saying here. You don't need to be the first to found. Even the fifth religion has good options available to it. And your game is an outlier so not a good example. Sorry man but getting a religion is pretty reliable in most games especially on Immortal. You keep saying that things need to be foregone to get religion and it just is not accurate, man. There's no reason you can't do all the things you're saying and also reliably get a religion in most games. Building one or two shrines is just not going to set you back in the ways you're suggesting.

The stars in no way need to align. If a map roll is truly devoid of pantheon faith resources and there are no other faith bonuses available, then that game is one of the rare ones where founding a religion isn't reliable nor worth it. Other than that rare circumstance, having control over religious bonuses is worth the meager hammer investment to get the pantheon which will lead you to founding a religion.

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[beetle]

I don't disagree there aren't several faith pantheons, but on Immortal and especially Deity you aren't getting first without a lot of luck...

Yes, sometimes (for example) the only faith-oriented dirt you have is quarries -- and that pantheon is popular with the AI.

nor are you even getting first found without extra help.

I almost always found last. But when I found, there are always good beliefs available.

The stars need to align just right to get religion... Is it possible? Sure. Reliable? Hell no.

I found in half my Deity games, maybe more. Your characterization of the odds is not correct. It is reliable enough, and when I don’t found, I have 300+ faith banked to pick up the faith buildings of the first religion that spreads to me.

I agree that there is RNG and therefor not nearly as reliable as the military and science benchmarks one has more control over. But that hardly implies that it is an aspect of the game where strong play demands pretty much ignoring that aspect of the game.

 

[adsin15]

I recommend that everyone play with the Mod

"No free AI pottery"

The AI starts with Pottery on Immortal and above I believe which is ludicrous. This simply mod will make founding a religion pretty easy even on deity.

 

[danaphanous]

I've founded in about 3/4 of my Deity games. The 1/4 that I didn't found was the rarer case when the terrain had basically nothing I could get early faith from other then shrines or I gave up the faith pantheon to pick a very powerful other pantheon. All the times I can get even a little faith from terrain or CS I usually get at least the 5th religion which, agreeing with others here, is worth it, there was plenty of good stuff left for my religion. In pretty much all of these cases I did not significantly deviate from optimal build orders, settling, or exploration. In fact the one game I did do that I lost the religion (but got a good pantheon). Basic rule is: don't go for religion on Deity if all you have is shrines to work with, but always go for pantheon.

 

[Kriogen]

Question: what is so uber about being a founder of religion? What do you get as a founder that is strong (or atleast not weak) that you can't get if you just adopt a religion?

 

[beetle]

What do you get as a founder that is strong (or at least not weak) that you can't get if you just adopt a religion?

1. Game-long Pantheon benefit that is guaranteed to match your dirt.
2. Two kinds of easy-to-fullfil CS quests (conversion and GPr spawning).
3. Easy religion management, since you can faith-purchase GPr and the first few are quite inexpensive.
4. Some gold from a founder benefit.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

5. Ability to control the belief bonuses you get. AI often doesn't pick good bonus combos.

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[danaphanous]

6. Certain beliefs are more viable long-term

For instance, I love the belief +2 happiness from temples or gardens when I found because happiness is great and I know that I can grow all cities 2 population higher with that belief. It's also around quite late and there to take 2/3 games. Contrast that to the uncertainty of not founding. Even if you get lucky enough to be near someone that has that belief the other AI will convert your cities and you'll lose it randomly. It isn't reliable unless you found. The favorite happiness source: pagodas, is actually permanent after you buy the building so doesn't have this problem. My best games for happiness have actually been ones where I founded late near the guy who grabbed pagodas, bought that in most cities, and still got happiness from my own religion when I converted my empire over. So founding first is not really needed. Even the 4th or 5th religion typically has better bonuses for you then the average AI religion, and if you get lucky and like an AI religion, you can still choose to accept it in some cities. However, you don't have any control over the benefits unless you found yourself.

 

[ShakaKhan]

There seems to be some confusion here regarding founding a religion and founding a pantheon. I'm one of the biggest supporters of not founding a RELIGION on deity, but also argue that founding a Pantheon is worth it every time.

 

[danaphanous]

Yeah several people have mixed it up. I agree, there is little opportunity cost for trying for a pantheon and big, early benefit. You should always do it.

Just a question: Do you give up a religion on Deity out of habit even when it would be easy? Because some games the RNG hands you a free religion if you just settle an NW, pick a certain pantheon, or defend a nearby religious CS from barbs and get ally status. In these games there is almost no cost to getting a religion and big benefits. It seems silly to me to never try for a religion even in these cases.

I just played an Aztec game with 2 nearby religious CS and uluru appearing to the South. I got a free religion from just one settler (and the uluru spot was already good so no opportunity cost) and was still able to take down the Huns nearby capital with a jaguar rush while basically completely ignoring religion. As a result I could also take sacred path to capitalize on the huge jungle I started in. I think I definitely came out ahead doing this so don't rule out a religion in these cases!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

There seems to be some confusion here regarding founding a religion and founding a pantheon. I'm one of the biggest supporters of not founding a RELIGION on deity, but also argue that founding a Pantheon is worth it every time.

In more than half of the games they are one and the same. Getting a Pantheon will give you Faith from lux tiles or certain terrains or even changing a good natural wonder into a faith factory. And that means almost zero opportunity cost in getting a religion. I already listed all the pantheons that give Faith to Lux and terrain tiles which you likely already know.

But to each their own. If you win games and enjoy not going for religion, then keep on keeping on. But religion has almost zero opportunity cost in a majority of my games.

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