Timothy McVeigh is Dead.

Simon Darkshade · Jun 11, 2001

Timothy McVeigh is dead. He was executed at 0714 Monday morning, US time. For some it is over. What are the reactions of the others here. I don't feel joyful, or sorrow, just rather empty, and with a sour taste after the whole media circus that went on.

Also, in my opinion, it was good that he made no adverse comment before he died. At least in that, he did something right.
But,we must remember his victims, but also think of the type of society that created such a man, and then turned him against humanity.

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BorderPatrol · Jun 11, 2001

Society didn't 'create' him. He may have gotten his ideas from watching the A-team or something but society didn't create him. He more than likely had a lack of parental guidance growing up, and probably had some reason to be angry. He wanted to vent that anger and the military taught him an effective way to do it. The US government was just his scapegoat. I really for sorry for him. But not as sorry as I feel for the innocent victims of his massacre.

Question is, now what do we do? All those people were killed and now that McVeigh is dead there is nobody around to blame.

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Siggy · Jun 11, 2001

I feel truly sorry for Mr. Mc Veigh and the innocent victims he made with his senseless action. All those dead people for nothing. Such a shame.

Dark X 101 · Jun 11, 2001

Actually, BorderPatrol, Tim got his idea from a book that he read. I can't remember the name of it, but they had an Oklihoma (Did I spell that right?) City bombing in it. I guess Tim liked the book so much he decided to reinact it.

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"Evil. That which one believes of others. It is a sin to believe evil of others, but it is seldom a mistake."
~H.L. Mencken

Alcibiaties of Athenae · Jun 11, 2001

I can only think of the poor victims, living and dead, of this.

Of the wives who will never see their husbands again, and vice-versa, the parents who suffered the ultimate horror, the loss of their children (the other parents here know what I mean in this), no matter what their age, little babies or grown up people, it makes no difference.

Of having to ask day after day, "why were they taken, while he still lives"?.

The closure they deserve has come.

The only McVeigh I feel anything for is his father, who couldn't believe his son had become a monster.

For all of us, the people of Oklahoma and the rest of the world, I'm glad this is over.

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BorderPatrol · Jun 12, 2001

A of A don't forget about the poor victim that put the syringe in McVeigh's arm and hit the start button. (sarcasm intended)

My point is that we are all victim's of this in a way. Many people who witnessed McVeigh's death said it was like looking into the eyes of the devil. Maybe the Tim McVeigh that his father knew had been kidnapped and victimized by a devil who performed this hideous act? If it sounds preposterous then think about it and prove the theory wrong. I rush to judge nobody, I let God sort them out.

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RedWolf · Jun 13, 2001

I watched the news last night and noticed that I was right about one of my predictions.

There, outside the prison were a group of stupid people cheering and clapping as if they were watching a football game.

That is one of the sickest things I have ever seen and it just goes to show how moronic some people are.

There have been many intelligent arguments in this forum suporting the death penalty (I just don't tend to agree with them) however these "fans" on TV are idiots and rednecks.

When the state finds that it has to execute somebody lets keep in mind that we are taking a LIFE. Yes many people feel that this is justified and thats fine. I'm not arguing about the merits of the death penalty in this post...

My point is that the taking of a life is not a happy event and it's certainly not worth cheering about. It happened and lets move on now. He may have very well have deserved it but it shouldn't make a person HAPPY to watch someone else die... maybe it brings satisfaction.. contentment... closure... whatever. However joy should NOT be the emotion felt by a civilized person.

BorderPatrol · Jun 12, 2001

Redwolf reminded me of the Greeks cheering as they watched prisoners thrown to the lions in the middle of a coloseum.

Also, one of the must infamous executions of all time was the execution of Jesus Christ. People were cheering at that one too. What if they hadn't had the death penalty back then?

Well, I guess that had to happen, sadly, to fulfil the scripture, but you get my point.

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SpacemanSpiff · Jun 12, 2001

To Simon's original question, "What are the reactions of the others here"?

IS "EVIL" EVIL?
I think following this whole ordeal has reinforced and reminded me of something very important. In reading more about McVeigh (mostly spurred by y'all talking about it here), I continue to realize that those we call "evil" are almost never simply, purely evil. Instead, they are doing what they feel is "good" & "right" for that situation (like any of us day-to-day) ... they have simply let go of certain priorities that most of us value (like the sanctity and sacredness of human life, in this case). That's no small thing, to be sure, but it is a very simple difference ... not a dramatic or "evil" one. [I'm NOT defending what he did ... he shouldn't have done it ... but I am looking for (and surprising finding) the humanity in him.]

BEING TIM McVEIGH
From all this, I'm reminded that EVERY person is a human being. A person who was born an innocent child and went through a specific & unique set of life experiences. I can't say, with 100% assurance, that if I had lived the exact same life as McVeigh, beginning to end (obviously impossible), that I wouldn't at least be tempted or have thought about doing the same thing. Of course, I HOPE I would have handled his life better than he did ... that I would have retained my value for life through whatever he went through and NOT done what he did ... but who really knows?

OUR PROBLEM W/ IT
I think we don't want to see the human side of someone we think is "evil" because then it's harder to kill him (or even harshly punish him) and still feel OK about it. It's MUCH, MUCH easier to label someone "evil" and then dispense with him. The problem is he was not ACTUALLY purely "evil" ... he was a human being, once an innocent child like we were ... he was not "a demon" as one witness said. I think we just choose to view him that way to make OURSELVES feel better and justified.

MOVIE "BAD GUYS"
Y'know how all of our movies and shows portray "the bad guys" as essentially plain evil, sometimes with a backstory to explain it? Soaps even just write up some evil character without any explanation ... they're just plain bad! "Yes, I will continue with my evil, evil plans ... <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/mwaha.gif" border=0>" These are kind of characters YOU WANT TO SEE DEAD because you can't find any good in them to make them redeemable. (sound familiar?)

IT'S NOT REAL
But even though we extend that cultural mythical archetype of the "evil one" into the real world, we know it's completely ridiculous if we think about it. No one in real life calls themselves "evil" like they do in the movies (and actually means it, except maybe in the current DarkX thread <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0> ). Sure, people may do things they know others wouldn't like or things that even they themselves would call "bad". And they know it is "bad" by the common, popular definition. But sometimes people feel forced into doing "bad" things because the only other choices seem WORSE! For McVeigh, maybe letting the gov't "get away with" what he thought were atrocities was WORSE than not acting at all.

THE IRONY
Regardless, all people (including McVeigh) think they are "right" or at least doing the best thing given their view of Life and definition of "what's best". McVeigh thought he was "dispensing justice" to an unlawful gov't that violated regular law & moral law. Since you can't arrest & criminally charge the gov't, this is what he came up with, with his military mind and background. Sure, his dispensing of justice sadly killed others ... but to him, he was killing those responsible for killing innocents (in his mind) in Waco/Ruby Ridge. But that's just what we did to him! ... took a life because he took innocent lives. He was taking lives because THEY took what HE thought were innocent lives! We didn't do anything different. But we'll tell ourselves he's "evil" to feel better.

GOOD BAD GUYS
Anyway, back to the movies (as they relate to life), I feel the best and most accurate portrayal of any "bad guy" on screen is when you are left feeling for and understanding the character and his motives to the point where you can't quite decide which side should win in the end. When you believe the people on both sides WANT to do good, and they are both doing what they THINK is good, but you end up siding with the "real" good guys ONLY because the acts and the METHODS of the "bad guys" just aren't OK with you.

X-MEN!
The X-Men movie was a great example of this. Magneto wanted to cause mutations in world leaders so they would know what it feels like to be a mutant while making their anti-mutant decisions. If I was a mutant feeling hunted by the gov't, I'd be VERY tempted to give them an experience of my plight if I could! I could feel Magneto's anger at being an outcast all his life when he have been treated as a forward movement in the human race. In that movie, the REAL bad guy was the senator calling for anti-mutant practices. The "bad" mutants were against the "evil" senator, not directly against the other "good mutants". It's only that Magneto's machine affected people so adversely and ultimately killed them that had me finally cheer for the X-men (& women). Otherwise, I really felt for Magneto and understood his motives. THAT, folks, is a rare and fair portrayal of a "bad guy", in movies and real life.

If you're open to alternate points of view, this could be what McVeigh was. He attempted to avenge the deaths of others by causing more deaths ... and so did we. And so we move on, hopefully learning something ... whatever that might be for each of us ...
Spiff <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/scan.gif" border=0>

[This message has been edited by SpacemanSpiff (edited June 12, 2001).]

goodbye_mr_bond · Jun 12, 2001

All that and the X-Men too!

I'm with Spiff one hundred percent on this. If I could just add a peripheral point to his 'movie bad guys' discussion it would be this: Art, be it movies or novels or whatever, gives us a great and useful opportunity to examine the perspectives and possible motivations of others. It's not only too easy to label others as evil, it's actually tempting. It's an urge we must fight if we are to learn about ourselves and our own motivations for our actions.

As much as we may all be disgusted with his actions, Timothy McVeigh was nothing but a man with a skewered perspective. I'm deeply saddened that his actions led to so much pain, but I personally would stop short of calling him evil.

FearlessLeader2 · Jun 13, 2001

Spiff was 100% on the money, but a tad verbose. I think I can dumb that down a notch if anyone didn't get it:

There are no good men, there are men who do mostly good things.

There are no evil men, there are men who do mostly evil things.

There are many men who do some evil things and some good things.

Timothy McVeigh was a man who did one extremely evil thing. I am sure he has done good things in the past, but the evil he did was sufficient for this country's laws to decree his death. I am sure he considered his act a neccessary evil, as he felt he had no recourse but to seek revenge for Janet Reno's victims, Clinton having denied them justice.

I personally think Idaho should be allowed to extradite Reno so her sentence can be carried out.

DBSD13 · Jun 13, 2001

I dunno but I pity both the killer and the victims...

If the killer kill and murder dozens or hundreds of ppl, we call him evil.
If a soldier kill and murder the same amount of ppl under an act of war, we call him a hero.
If the "justice" kill the killer in a court debated amongst mortals, we dun object to it.

No-one is perfect, its just a matter of who is worst than the other. In this case, ppl kill for pleasure. McVeigh killed for his hatred of the federal government and gain pleasure out of his work. The victims family killed him for their hatred of McVeigh and gain pleasure with his death. Their only reason is, "There is justice". They won't say the same if the law is on the other side.

Only God makes justice.

SunTzu · Jun 13, 2001

I'm glad he's dead and if i was in Oklahoma city now i would be out side cheering because he was executed, and i think he's cremated ashes should be pissed on then destroyed wtih acid or something.
I also beleive that the FBI agent that was caught spying for the Russians should be executed also.

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scorch · Jun 13, 2001

who cares? i don't really give a ****, unless it happens to me.

RedWolf · Jun 13, 2001

Originally posted by SunTzu:
I'm glad he's dead and if i was in Oklahoma city now i would be out side cheering because he was executed,

I know you would be. Why am I not really surprised?

gjts00 · Jun 13, 2001

I have a question for those who didn't agree with TIMMY"S execution...Do you think that the Nazis should have been executed at Nuremburg? Or, what would you have liked to see done to Hitler, had he been captured before he got to take the easy way out? What Tim did was no less an atrocity than the ones committed by those named above. I think that he got off easy. If the call was mine to make, he would have been stoned & revived each time that he lost consciousness until he was dead. The survivors & friends/families of Oklahoma City have to live with that horrible day for the rest of their lives. Don't forget that McVeigh brought TERRORISM to American soil! Atrocious actions deserve atrocious consequences. I don't care one damn bit as to why he did it...He did it & for that, he got what he deserved. Not the way I would've liked for him to meet his end, but the effect was right on.

I say good riddance to a waste of humanity...I hope that you rot in hell you FU*K!!!

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Listen, strange women lying around in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system government.

[This message has been edited by gjts00 (edited June 13, 2001).]

andycapp · Jun 13, 2001

I have very mixed feelings about the execution of T. McVeigh, I'll try to explain. I had said in another thread that although usually against the death penalty I wasn't too troubled by the thought of McVeigh being executed - that's (I'll admit) not quite true. My initial reaction to the horror of the crime, which was so callous and barbaric (words are insufficient), was to wish a very a similar fate for the perpetrator(s?).

Upon reflection I think McVeigh has gotten off very lightly and possibly furthered his pathetic cause by becoming a martyr in the eyes of those that believe violent extremism is the way to solve problems in society. I admit I don't know what the most appropriate and just solution for such a crime is. However, I am impressed with one response that is increasingly being used in many legal jurisdictions of making the perpetrator of a crime directly confront the consequences of his/her actions.

In particular, meeting with the parents/spouses/children/friends/etc of the victims so that the perpetrator can hear, and see what damage their criminal act has wrought. This for many humans (possibly even the T. McVeighs of this world) would be an horrendous thing. Consider the situation of McVeigh sitting in the same room listening to the mother of one of the murdered children describe the child they loved, the joy they brought and the future they might have had, if he had not killed them. I don't say this is the whole answer but it might bring some small measure of healing to the (living) victims and ominously for McVeigh a true understanding of what it was he had done.

The other thing that bothers me about executing McVeigh is there is, now, no chance of him implicating the other people that must have had an association with this crime and understanding the thought processes and events that he went through on the way to committing the crime. To simply label McVeigh and/or his crime as evil and cheer his death as justice and a finale, is to avoid understanding how this might happen again and hopefully prevent it (or at least reduce the risk).

And what of the victims (both dead and living) of this horrendous crime? (My heart and prays go out to them). Without being aware of what official memorial is being planned to the victims, I wonder if a perpetual award of some sort - perhaps a literary award (either prose or verse) that celebrates life (and therefore the crime of taking it away). This might be one way to remember those whose lives were so cruelly cut short or the living who were maimed and lost loved ones rather than perpetuate the name of Timothy McVeigh.

BorderPatrol · Jun 13, 2001

jgts I think you miss the point of those of us who disagree with McVeigh's execution. We disagree because we don't think the death penalty is justice. Just more carnage. Doesn't matter if it was hitler or whoever.

We certainly don't like what happened any more than you do. But another death solves nothing in our book.

I have noticed that everyone who posts here is on one side of the fence of the other and nobody has changed sides or even gotten on the fence at all. Therefore I don't see much point, but just airing our views so that we can read what's in our heads.

I respect everyone's opinion here who is on the other side of the fence. I really try to see things their way but for me it seems that in order to see things that way instead of opening my mind, I need to close it.

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goodbye_mr_bond · Jun 14, 2001

Originally posted by BorderPatrol:
I have noticed that everyone who posts here is on one side of the fence of the other and nobody has changed sides or even gotten on the fence at all. Therefore I don't see much point, but just airing our views so that we can read what's in our heads

I don't ever really expect that I will ever get someone to join me on my side of the fence. If it happens, great, but it's rare. They're either already here or unlikely to cross over just because of me.

HOWEVER, I do see this kind of discussion as useful because 1)It reassures me that I'm still *thinking* about why I believe what I do, and 2)People do have life-changing events that make them question all they believe. Moral revolutions if you will. In these situations, they might just remember your perspective and find a way back to a safe place on one side of the fence or another. Rather than giving up altogether that is.

In other words, having these sorts of discussions functions kind of like a built-in ethical Statue of Liberty, lessening the period of anarchy in between philosophy types

scorch · Jun 14, 2001

i'm suprised, no hatemail yet

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Timothy McVeigh is Dead.

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