Tips for faster Science victory?

[immortalwarrior]

Hi,

I've got BNW, but am finding it much harder than G+K. Although I was never great at G+K...my average Science victory was around turn 320, although I got it to 300 once. But never less than that.

On BNW though I am even worse. I complete it about turn 360, and I'm only playing on King difficulty! How do you get the faster victories?

I play as Arabia, and my build order is: scout, worker, great library, then chop forests if I have them to complete it faster. Great library normally finished by about turn 55, then I build the National College (picking Philisophy as my free tech). After that I build/buy settlers and make my 4 cities, while cranking out archers as fast as possible. I go with tradition as my opener.

From there, I'll get the techs for composite bows if I don't have them already, and start a tech path to civil service. I'll make it to 'education' by about turn 130-135, then build my universities ASAP. Despite all this, my science victory times all suck, and the turn 250 science victories spoke of on here seem like a distance dreamworld, nevermind sub-200 victories.

How is it done?

 

[joncnunn]

This is assuming you are playing on standard speed:

Arabia is probably not the best civ to be building the Great Library with given side effects of the desert bias. (Arabia typically has high food - low hammer starts)

As them even on King, I'd try replacing the great library with the much cheaper regular library, building 1 or 2 archer-settler pairs, then NC, and then fill to 4 cities.

 

[Sclb]

One problem I see is your are expanding too late, leading to late education etc. The Great library itself is a noob trap on higher difficulties. You're essentially playing with 1 city until finishing NC around 70, while if you expanded correctly you could've 3-4 cities by then.

 

[HughFran]

I personally don't see the GL as a noob trap, if you start as a good Scientific Civ and research Writing early enough you can build GL no problem. In my last three games on high difficulty I've built the GL with no issues as well as having my second settler built and city created.

I agree that Arabia is not the best Civ for Science - you really have to play to the strengths of whatever Civ you are being. Look closely at their UA/UB and take advantage of that. Science victory can still be achieved but it's not the be-all-end-all. In fact, I find Science victories to be the easiest way to win the game and try to challenge myself to Cultural or Diplomatic victories which I find are harder to achieve.

But if you want to go science then I would suggest playing as Korea or Babylon. I am playing as Babylon currently and I have academies all over the place and still has GS units to spare which can then be used to speed up research.

 

[Sclb]

research Writing early enough you can build GL no problem

This is next to impossible on deity as it's usually gone by turn 30. You need a very strong start and get writing with a ruin. There is little reason to rely on building GL to win fast SV.

challenge myself to Cultural or Diplomatic victories which I find are harder to achieve.

Peaceful CV is the most difficult victory. Diplo is easier than SV as you don't need that many tech and the play style is mostly science. It hinges on the timings when you get to information era, or the world reaches atomic (you have to eliminate all but 2 civ if you want to force it earlier)

I have academies all over the place

You should only plant 1-2 even as Babylon as the value of the bulb increases the later you use them (the value is the average of last 8 turns). All it means is you can start bulbing them earlier than other civ. You should aim to get sub 250 SV turn times, possibly sub 220 with good civ and good dirt. These time is achievable on deity as you can leech science and sign good RA easily. On lower difficulty, it's probably not achievable you can adjust it to be 280 or so. If the turn time is longer, then planting more academy works may out better in that case.
Read this thread for discussion on this topic: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=549023

 

[beetle]

On BNW though I am even worse. I complete it about turn 360, and I'm only playing on King difficulty! How do you get the faster victories?

It is a little counter-intuitive, but SV turns-to-victory comes down as you go up difficulty levels. I could not get my SV before 350 at Immortal, so I was afraid to try Deity -- but that reluctance turned out to be misplaced. I am still struggling to get SV before T300, but I am enjoying my Deity games.

I think you are more than okay to bump up the difficulty level.

 

[Mesix]

Try expanding before building your national college. You should be able to get 4 cities up by turn 60 and have the NC built by turn 80ish. This can be faster if you go Liberty, but then it will slow down your growth (Tradition is generally better for Science VC in most conditions).

Try to get your cities built near mountains (and rivers) so that you can build Observatories (and other terrain specific buildings).

Use internal trade routes for food to increase growth. It is better to have trade ships because they produce more food than caravans. You should try to keep trade routes maxed out (so if there are 3 available then they should be 3/3). Prioritize trade routes to the National College city because you want this to grow the fastest.

You might try settling a strong second city (near a mountain with a lot of food) early on and building Great Library here. This is doable at King, and perhaps Emperor, but difficult on Immortal and above. This will prevent rerolling maps for the optimal capital because you can explore for a better science city location for your second city.

Grab a good Petra location for one of your four cities. Preferable with a lot of desert hill tiles and next to a mountain (and river and coast if possible).

Don't build workers. Steal them, and barring that, buy one early on.

 

[Makenshi]

I find the most important thing about the GL and the Oracle to be the great scientist points they generate. They are the only regular way to get a Great Scientist - and thus an academy - long before universities. Considering the snowball effect an academy or two can have, they're kinda important in my book. And since I never saw the AI the plant an academy even when they go full liberty, I presume they don't choose the GS as their free GP, which makes the monopoly of GS generation even more important.

Plus, if you deduce [in your mind] the hammer cost of a library from the GL [since it gives one, which would have to be built anyway], the GL actually has a fair hammer cost for its benefits...

But then again, I'm just a king player, so my view may not be entirely accurate.

 

[immortalwarrior]

I tried starting as Poland instead. Managed to get my SV to turn 340 but I still must be doing some major stuff wrong. I had a fairly decent start, with mountains next to my first two cities. I got Education in turn 117 so that was OK, but I must have played crap after that. How the heck do people get these turn 250 victories?

Are research agreements worth it? I signed some before with Arabia but they didn't seem to do anything when completed? Back when I was playing G+K after I completed an RA I'd normally get an extra free tech researched, but in BNW I was out of luck. What do they actually do?

I don't have Korea/Babylon in my starting Civ options, so they're out.

Regarding using the internal trade - I thought that was a waste of time, since I'd just be taking food from one city (slowing its growth) and putting it into another (increasing it's growth). So the net effect would be neutral, right? It doesn't just generate food out of thin air?

 

[CraigMak]

For science you want to settle mountains at the expense of almost anything. Observatories are mega OP. I would start the game off by going scout, scout, Shrine, Settler, Settler, Settler, getting granaries in your first two new cities to send food caravans to your cap and starting the 4th city off on a library to get your NC.

Get GL only if you have nothing important to make such as workers, caravans etc.. After an early 4 city NC I would beeline civil service for fresh water farms growth and then straight to universities. Get a university and garden in as many cities as you can to generate scientists. If you have no threats beeline Astronomy for observatories.

Then go straight for Notre Dame for happiness if available and on to Pisa so you can get a scientists with it. Then straight to porcelain tower for another scientist.

The trick here is to save up your scientists until you have labs and burn them once your labs have been up for 8 turns. Then burn straight to hubble.

Your ideology will vary depending on your terrain. Order is great if you have coal for 25% science from factories. Freedom if you have some academies to enhance.

Your policies will be all tradition, open patronage then get rationalism as soon as renaissance is opened.

The goal here is to get 4 very large cities working scientist slots and having observatories if possible. Generate scientists and work jungles if they are present for science.

Key wonders are artemis and HG for growth as well as notre dame for happiness, pisa and porcelain for scientists. GL and oracle are of course great for scientists points but not worth rushing at the cost of infrastructure. Nor is any wonder. Getting out your 4 core cities and workers is more important than rushing GL.

 

[Dushku]

Are research agreements worth it?

Only on the highest of difficulties. When I tried them on Immortal when I was already the tech leader, it gave me less than a day's worth of my empire's science intake.

Yes, Internal trade routes conjure food out of thin air. There's no detriment to the city of origin.

The key to faster SV is planning your GSs properly. Plant the first 2-3 for Academies in the city that has the highest science modifiers (i.e. NC, Observatory). Then save all the other ones you get for bulbing AFTER you are working all your Research Labs and have Atomic Theory for about 8 turns. Don't bulb them for techs that say they have less than 4 turns left or else you'll waste some of the science. Also, plan ahead so that on the turn you get Education, ST, and Plastics, you can buy at least one of those science buildings the same turn. ALWAYS work ALL scientist slots. Once you have Secularism, work engineer slots too if it's not too big of a sacrifice. Choosing the Freedom ideology makes working specialist slots even easier with the half food and half unhappiness tenets.

Speaking of social policies, game your culture intake. Keep it low in the early game to increase your chance of being able to go straight from Tradition into Rationalism. Then ramp up your culture intake (work Writer's Guild, gift cultured CS) to get social policies faster. The fewer policies you have, the sooner you'll be able to take Secularism after the Rationalism opener. Once you hit Rationalism, take Secularism, Humanism, and Free Thought. All of this will speed up your science victory quite a bit.

Going back to bulbing GSs, the later the better. Sure once you have Research Labs and Atomic Theory, they're going to be huge. But the longer you wait, the more you'll grow, the bigger they'll become. We're talking the difference between 6k and 8-10k science!

 

[Mesix]

Regarding using the internal trade - I thought that was a waste of time, since I'd just be taking food from one city (slowing its growth) and putting it into another (increasing it's growth). So the net effect would be neutral, right? It doesn't just generate food out of thin air?

You misunderstand the internal trade routes. It is indeed free food. You are forgoing gold (from an external trade route) to get food (or production) from an internal trade route. In almost every case, having food is the best option.

When playing a four city start, you want your three other cities to send a trade route to your National College city as soon as trade routes become available. Think of it as a wonder which takes 2-3 turns to build. This will really help your growth and thus your research throughout the game.

 

[immortalwarrior]

Wow, thanks all. Going to start up another game now and make sure I set up those trade routes!

Will ditch the GL too since I'm getting sick of everyone taking all the decent land before I have a chance to expand.

Should I position the cities 6 tiles away from each other? I read that was optimal as each city only works the 3 tiles surrounding it. Or is 5 tiles really sufficient since it's only in the late game that this makes a difference and we're going to be putting 4 of our population into scientist slots anyway?

 

[reddishrecue]

You misunderstand the internal trade routes. It is indeed free food. You are forgoing gold (from an external trade route) to get food (or production) from an internal trade route. In almost every case, having food is the best option.

When playing a four city start, you want your three other cities to send a trade route to your National College city as soon as trade routes become available. Think of it as a wonder which takes 2-3 turns to build. This will really help your growth and thus your research throughout the game.

Internal food to NC city is better particularly with cargo ships. You will be making a lot of food and a lot of population asap.
Another thing, using great scientists for techs are better later years like in 1970s to 2000s. While early great scientists are better when placed as academies because the science produced is a lot more this way. Earlier scientists 4000 or 2000 bc etc turn them into academies. Later scientists 2000ad, bulb them for science.

 

[CraigMak]

Wow, thanks all. Going to start up another game now and make sure I set up those trade routes!

Will ditch the GL too since I'm getting sick of everyone taking all the decent land before I have a chance to expand.

Should I position the cities 6 tiles away from each other? I read that was optimal as each city only works the 3 tiles surrounding it. Or is 5 tiles really sufficient since it's only in the late game that this makes a difference and we're going to be putting 4 of our population into scientist slots anyway?

I would base city placement more on acquiring a good mountain spot than anything. You want to touch a mountain with as many cities as possible. You don't want the cities so close that they're taking eachother's land but wherever the mountains and good lands with luxuries are, that's where you plant. I would focus on getting those 3 - 4 cities out ASAP and get caravans running to your capital.

Basically if you can space the cities apart without sacrificing anything then do it but it should not be a primary concern when placing cities. You don't want them so far away that roads cost a ton either.

 

[CraigMak]

Internal food to NC city is better particularly with cargo ships. You will be making a lot of food and a lot of population asap.
Another thing, using great scientists for techs are better later years like in 1970s to 2000s. While early great scientists are better when placed as academies because the science produced is a lot more this way. Earlier scientists 4000 or 2000 bc etc turn them into academies. Later scientists 2000ad, bulb them for science.

It has nothing to do with the year. You want to plant your first couple of scientists most likely and save the rest for after labs. The year is completely irrelevant. You want to burn them once you have labs in all your cities and have had them for 8 turns.

 

[Dushku]

Should I position the cities 6 tiles away from each other?

There is no rule. It's completely terrain dependent. This is important to understand. I once treated that as a rule also. Then one time I posted a screenshot asking where others thought the best expand plots were. One person recommended a spot I hadn't even considered because it was "too close" to my capital. But he was right because it's position would make it a solid city even with losing some tiles to the capital.

Then there are other times where you want an expand 9 tiles away for optimal city potential. You just have to try and maintain visibility between the cities while your borders are growing. Don't want a barb camp spawning next to your roads!

The thing to keep in mind is that if you do settle an expand near the capital, there's may be some tile clipping. Go into your capital and make sure your citizens are still working the tiles best for the capital. Favor the capital in these situations and make the expand deal with lower overall tiles to work with.

 

[reddishrecue]

It has nothing to do with the year. You want to plant your first couple of scientists most likely and save the rest for after labs. The year is completely irrelevant. You want to burn them once you have labs in all your cities and have had them for 8 turns.

So its the science buildings that increase great scientist technology per great scientist? If that were true how come the science increases even after labs?

 

[CraigMak]

So its the science buildings that increase great scientist technology per great scientist? If that were true how come the science increases even after labs?

A scientist gives you the total amount of science you have made over the last 8 turns. So, burning them 8 turns after getting all your labs up will result in the largest increase. You will continue to get more from scientists as you continue to grow and work more specialist slots/jungle tiles naturally.

Science is based off population of course as well.

 

[Sclb]

I would base city placement more on acquiring a good mountain spot than anything.

Regarding observatories, you want the priority of the mountain location on the capital more than anything else. It's extremely difficult to get 4 mountain spots as you want good location with food. If you can get coastal mountain that is even better as you can feed it with food cargo. It is usually better to take a few turns to find optimal spots to place the capital instead of just settling in place on turn 1.