TNT Reunion

[Robi D]

Greetings Robi D,

In answer to your recent message my people have instructed me to tell you we would consider an acceptable and honorable peace between us if you treat us with honor and respect, pay us a tribute of 10 gold now plus 1 gold per turn in perpetuity; send a group of Iroqi men (a worker) to husband the Iroqi women already residing with our people; and teach us all you know about writing, Code of Laws and map making](my emphasis). If you are inclined to grant us due respect, these *fine technologies* (as you once called them) and send us the gold and worker, we are inclined to end the hostilities between us.

My people await your reply.

donsig

PS - all your goats are belong to us.

Ring any bells grand whatever it was. 10 gold was all we had, hence all our gold and you demanded writing, CoL and Maps. Considiring we only had writing to give and would need to research the other 2 over the next 20+ turns to give you i think its pretty safe to say you demanded all our gold and techs. I had forgetten that you also wanted yet another worker on top of the one you had already stolen.

 

[Whomp]

I would've burned the core city too. That would've guaranteed a long recovery period for TNT and allowed the team to dictate terms.

 

[donsig]

General Robi D you said this:

We made several generous offers for peace during the entire conflict. All were rejected. Your demends for all tech and all gold every 20 turns remained unchanged until just before the end. The fact is had MIA not gifted you to the MA we would have kept going with the war.

I called you on that and you dug up a message we sent you guys on 10/14 - before turn 50. You say those terms remained unchanged until just before the end. That's just plain BS. By December 3 we pointed out that you had writing, horseback riding and mysticism and we would have accepted some tech(s) for peace. On Dec. 11 this changed to code of laws, literature and philosophy (a mere pittance). If your people are willing to give any of these - note it says any of these allowing you to make a counter offer that did not include all three. On January 6 the terms were quite different. We offered to return your worker and give you currency in return for a technology of your choice, 1 gpt (the token tribute) and 25 that you had just taken from a barb hut in the Sacred Jungle. Carpetbomb was razed around Feb. 7.

Our demands show steady changes as the war progressed. Admit it General, when you guys had your string of good luck your team decided not to make peace. Go back and read those long letters I sent warning that KISS and MIA grew stronger while we wasted our efforts in war. We tried negotiating with your team but whenever we gave in on something it was never enough. There was a golden opportunity for you to get peace, your worker and currency for a pittance - that was a peace settlement in your team's favor (not even equitable) but your team refused it.

 

[Nobody]

Donsig, you make it sound as if the evil doughnuts wouldnt make peace. You launched a unprovoaked attack then demanded all our tech, a slave, a lump sum of gold and a 1 gold tribute. After this when you relised you were losing you still wanted us to pay you tribute. Your citys deserved everything they got.

 

[Robi D]

General Robi D you said this:

I called you on that and you dug up a message we sent you guys on 10/14 - before turn 50. You say those terms remained unchanged until just before the end. That's just plain BS. By December 3 we pointed out that you had writing, horseback riding and mysticism and we would have accepted some tech(s) for peace. On Dec. 11 this changed to code of laws, literature and philosophy (a mere pittance). If your people are willing to give any of these - note it says any of these allowing you to make a counter offer that did not include all three. On January 6 the terms were quite different. We offered to return your worker and give you currency in return for a technology of your choice, 1 gpt (the token tribute) and 25 that you had just taken from a barb hut in the Sacred Jungle. Carpetbomb was razed around Feb. 7.

Our demands show steady changes as the war progressed. Admit it General, when you guys had your string of good luck your team decided not to make peace. Go back and read those long letters I sent warning that KISS and MIA grew stronger while we wasted our efforts in war. We tried negotiating with your team but whenever we gave in on something it was never enough. There was a golden opportunity for you to get peace, your worker and currency for a pittance - that was a peace settlement in your team's favor (not even equitable) but your team refused it.

Your right, your demands did change, as we discovered new techs you wanted them too. You describe CoL, Lit and philo as a mere pittance. Considering not one of your troops that stepped onto our side of the island made it back alive, why would we give you anything. Apart from the warrior that launched a sneak attack to start the war not one of your troops got within 10 tiles of our cities.

Going on your logic after MIA forced out landing force to retreat we should have demand corporation and motirised transport off them for a peace treaty, after all that would have been just a mere pittance.

You say we refused all your treaties, damn right we did, at no stage did you threaten us militarily yet all your treaties had us giving you techs.

I don't know maybe us nutters are the insane ones in this argument, so i ask for a netural perspective, i ask the people from MIA and KISS to take the time to read through the events of the war and the peace proposals that were sent back and forth, and ask them to tell us what they would have said to your demands

 

[Daghdha]

In hindsight, if I'd been a Nut...hmmm. I would have gone for elimination of the aggressors while trying to get one opponent overseas to help me keep up in techs in exchange for land. I would never ever had agreed to give anything at all to TNT for peace. TNT would of course have been the ones to pay.

 

[donsig]

Going on your logic after MIA forced out landing force to retreat we should have demand corporation and motirised transport off them for a peace treaty, after all that would have been just a mere pittance.

You say we refused all your treaties, damn right we did, at no stage did you threaten us militarily yet all your treaties had us giving you techs.

I don't know maybe us nutters are the insane ones in this argument, so i ask for a netural perspective, i ask the people from MIA and KISS to take the time to read through the events of the war and the peace proposals that were sent back and forth, and ask them to tell us what they would have said to your demands

First of all I don't see how our warrior taking one of your workers can be compared to the sneak attack KISS laid on us or any of MIA's wars. It didn't matter what you guys would have demanded or offered MIA. By the time they attacked you they had victory in their sights. Despite our role playing BS we would have accepted a reasonable peace settlement. I can see why we never made peace. You guys never read our communications! Even now after the game is over you still don't understand what we were saying!

Yes, I hope the other teams will look at our peace negotiations and see if the TNT demands were way over the top for the whole war as the General has suggested.

 

[azzaman333]

It looks like miscommuniction and false expecations of mutual enemies caused both Nuts and TNT to be in a rather painful position with each other. Both were as big-headed and unwilling to give in as each other, causing each other to be completely covered in $***.

 

[Whomp]

Donut was not out of line when you consider they were standing at your core's doorstep. Straight up peace would've been the best option imo.

As far as our sneak attack I don't recall you guys ever making any attempt at a offer of peace to us like we had with the other two teams.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

the sneak attack KISS laid on us

IIRC, we had no deals going ever. In reading the threads, looks like everyone bailed except BCLG, greekguy and vind.

 

[greekguy]

IIRC, we had no deals going ever. In reading the threads, looks like everyone bailed except BCLG, greekguy and vind.

lost_civ was there towards the end, too. he just got really busy with RL from April onwards, so he wasn't as active as myself and BCLG.

 

[donsig]

Donut was not out of line when you consider they were standing at your core's doorstep. Straight up peace would've been the best option imo.

As far as our sneak attack I don't recall you guys ever making any attempt at a offer of peace to us like we had with the other two teams.

A month before Carpetbomb was burned (and long before they stood at our core's doorstep, we offered them a deal that was better for them than straight up peace. They turned it down, and that was fine. What's not fine is now that the game is over General Robi D is claiming peace was impossible before Carpetbomb was razed because of our demands.

As for us not making a peace offer to KISS, well that would have been about as useless as the Donuts trying to end the war with MIA. KISS demanded our three most productive cities. We could not have done that and survived as a viable team (i.e., one that had any chance of winning the game).

Now it could be that Whomp is suggesting the KISS attack was not a sneak attack because there was no formal peace treaty between KISS and TNT. Well, if we're to use that sort of logic then the Donuts can claim our attack was unwarranted because there was no peace treaty between them and TNT. Personally, I did not see the need for formal peace treaties in the begining. I saw the absence of hostilites as peace. Silly me.

 

[Whomp]

A month before Carpetbomb was burned (and long before they stood at our core's doorstep, we offered them a deal that was better for them than straight up peace. They turned it down, and that was fine. What's not fine is now that the game is over General Robi D is claiming peace was impossible before Carpetbomb was razed because of our demands.

The situation was still fluid. The fact remains immortals were mincemeat to MW's. The movement differential is substantial that early in the game and not a UU I'd want to face till later in the game. Just my opinion.

As for us not making a peace offer to KISS, well that would have been about as useless as the Donuts trying to end the war with MIA. KISS demanded our three most productive cities. We could not have done that and survived as a viable team (i.e., one that had any chance of winning the game).

We never intended to give you peace form April Fool's Day on.

Now it could be that Whomp is suggesting the KISS attack was not a sneak attack because there was no formal peace treaty between KISS and TNT. Well, if we're to use that sort of logic then the Donuts can claim our attack was unwarranted because there was no peace treaty between them and TNT. Personally, I did not see the need for formal peace treaties in the begining. I saw the absence of hostilites as peace. Silly me.

I would not consider your attack to be a surprise attack but more bad timing to start a war. In hindsight, it led to both of our demises. Anytime I've been in a MP game the discussion of peace immediately comes up unless I don't intend to be peaceful with that person.

 

[Robi D]

I don't recall recieveing a decent offer until 2 turns before we hit Carpetbomb and no one was willing to let a 40 turn plan go to waste. As for the eventual peace that was mainly brought about with the MIA multi tech deal giving you pikes. Had it not been for that we were confident to press on and finish the job. The fact was we knew the game was lost for us due to the war but we wanted to make sure you went out before us.

As it was, kuningas and killer did a job far beyond my skills and managed to get us to a position were we were close to winning. Having seen all the forums i can say with complete confidence that had MIA hit KISS 30 turns later we would have been a 50-50 shot at winning

 

[donsig]

I don't recall recieveing a decent offer until 2 turns before we hit Carpetbomb and no one was willing to let a 40 turn plan go to waste.

The you weren't paying attention General. This offer was made on Jan. 6 (circa turn 85). Carpetbomb was razed in February around turn 96. We're getting closer to the truth when you say your team did not want to waste a 40 turn plan. That was the reason you didn't meake peace, not the terms we offered.

 

[Robi D]

The you weren't paying attention General. This offer was made on Jan. 6 (circa turn 85). Carpetbomb was razed in February around turn 96. We're getting closer to the truth when you say your team did not want to waste a 40 turn plan. That was the reason you didn't meake peace, not the terms we offered.

Are you like kidding me. Did you read the peace proposal through entirely?

That is not an even peace deal. You offered currency for one of our tech but you were still asking for 25g +1gpt indifinately.

Your army just got smashed to pieces yet you wanted us to give you gold? The first time you dropped the gold demand was 2 turns before Carpetbombed got wiped out, which was right about the time you could see our forces that had outflanked you for the first time and knew you couldn't defend against them.

The truth is you attacked us without reason and got what was coming to you.

 

[Nobody]

to add to robis last statement, you also demanded that we refer to you as "Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples. " Name you ruler of our land, i think not!

 

[Rik Meleet]

And that ends the bickering.
Thank you.

-> Back to the festivities of the reunion.

 

[donsig]

Are you like kidding me. Did you read the peace proposal through entirely?

That is not an even peace deal. You offered currency for one of our tech but you were still asking for 25g +1gpt indifinately.

Your army just got smashed to pieces yet you wanted us to give you gold? The first time you dropped the gold demand was 2 turns before Carpetbombed got wiped out, which was right about the time you could see our forces that had outflanked you for the first time and knew you couldn't defend against them.

The truth is you attacked us without reason and got what was coming to you.

I wrote the peace proposal so I'm familiar with what it said General. Our gold demand was not indifinately since the proposed treaty was only for twenty turns. Also, nothing in the offer was a demand in the sense that it was non-negotiable. It did seem like your team never wanted to negotiate. We'd make an offer and you guys would just reject it without making a counter proposal.

We did want gold because we were offering up an expensive tech and were willing to take a cheap one in return. We thought (or at least I thought) you could pay some gold and still come out on top in the deal. Even though we've been discussing this I still don't know if our offer was in your favor or not.

 

[BCLG100]

does it matter now? the game is over.