to raze, or not to raze, that is the question?

Shudz

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
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Location
Bristol, England
The year is 1000bc, the difficulty monarch, and Rome preats are on the march, having destroyed and razed 2 of the frenchs cities already, they find Paris has built the pyramids.
Paris is located about 25 squares away, I have 3 cities and currently -9gpt with 220 in the bank at 50 % science. Rome has 2 scientists currently.

So to raze, or not to raze?
 
Without screenshots, I'd say:
- You should be able to go much lower than -9 gpt with 50% science,
- The Mids are quite useful, and
- You only have 3 cities
=> Don't raze ;)
 
Don't Raze. You can expand in the direction of Paris, and can be pretty sure your military can defend both it and new cities (just pump out more Praets and/or Archers).

I'd say 3 or 4 cities towards Paris and you might even be able to switch to representation, and even though you might not get an immediate benefit, you will eventually catch back up and then race ahead.

As was said, a screenshot would be helpful, but I would never Raze Pyramids.
 
Probably wouldn't raze even if it did not have the Pyramids. Pretty much any capital site is worth keeping IMO.
 
Forget about the question of to raze or not, you REALLY need to understand what civics are and what they can really do first.
 
You're not even close to the point where you have to think about not keeping a capital with MIDS IN IT.
 
One thing about the way you present your economic health (-9gpt at 50% science):
This does not include the relevant number: What's relevant is essentially the number of beakers you make plus the gpt you make (you have to be a bit more subtle as soon as multipliers as libraries and markets kick in, but as a rough guide it keeps working). If the 50% science gives you 30 b(eakers)pt it is a completely different situation than when they only net you 10bpt. Both are possible with 3 cities, and if you have 10bpt and -9gpt you are in economic trouble (though 10bpt is so low you should with minimal changes be able to work your way out of it), while at 30bpt and -9gpt your economy is running quite nicely.

Remember: It is better to have 20% science from a total commerce of 100 than 80% from a total of 20. The absolute value of beakers you can make (while running no gold deficit) is relevant, not the science rate needed to get there.

Anyway, from the data you did give, I can't believe your economy sucks so bad that taking on Paris would immediately make it drop dead, and getting an extra capital, with the Pyramids no less, will certainly pay for itself in the long run, so keep it. Switching to Representation gives you 6 beakers from the 2 specialists in Rome, which, together with whatever commerce Paris itself brings in, should easily pay for the upkeep of Paris. Thus keeping Paris should be an economic improvement from the get-go.

Just remember to keep razing the cities of your next victim unless they have 4 resources or so in the BFC (i.e. unless they are capitals themselves), or have a nice wonder, because Praetorians can indeed conquer the world quicker than you can make it profitable. Still, it is possible to keep the real good ones, and getting good new cities is the biggest possible reward of a war.

PS Similarly the measurement 25 squares is only meaningful if you give map size and type. On huge maps you have to pay a lot less maintenance at this distance than on duel maps.
 
Just remember to keep razing the cities of your next victim unless they have 4 resources or so in the BFC (i.e. unless they are capitals themselves), or have a nice wonder, because Praetorians can indeed conquer the world quicker than you can make it profitable. Still, it is possible to keep the real good ones, and getting good new cities is the biggest possible reward of a war.
Razing any city with less than 4 recouces? This is madness! :D I can come up with a hundred examples of a city with less recources, and no wonders that I wouldn't raze. This doesn't sound like quality advice. The only time you should raze cities that are not totaly junk / settled in the wrong spot, is when you want to win conquest with a decisive early rush. Something about the opening post makes me think Shudz is not aiming for a 1 AD conquest victory here.
 
Razing any city with less than 4 recouces? This is madness! :D I can come up with a hundred examples of a city with less recources, and no wonders that I wouldn't raze. This doesn't sound like quality advice. The only time you should raze cities that are not totaly junk / settled in the wrong spot, is when you want to win conquest with a decisive early rush. Something about the opening post makes me think Shudz is not aiming for a 1 AD conquest victory here.

Depending on how fast you conquer, if you don't want to tank your economy there is a maximum number of cities you can handle. If you are conquering a lot early and keeping all cities that you would want eventually (because they do have 1 or 2 resources and are placed correctly, but don't have any especially good reason to keep them) you can easily overexpand, come into a slump, be very technologically backwards before you get out of the slump, and lose the game.

In particular you should have a higher bar than "cities that are good" for keeping cities if you conquer a lot of them. You don't settle all possible cities of that level immediately either, do you? The bar is a bit lower than "cities I would settle right now" since keeping them now saves you the cost of a settler, and you may have some bonus buildings/pop to start with. But it is certainly sometimes wise to raze perfectly placed cities on average terrain (of a level that you'd settle them eventually to not let the area go to waste), to avoid overexpansion.

The important question you need to ask yourself is what the goal of the war is if it is not getting those cities. Gaining an early conquest is one possible answer, but clearing the land for later expansion, removing a neighbor who is bound to misbehave, or getting some awesome cities are also valid reasons.

Perhaps my advice was a bit too exaggerated, but the point is: razing awesome cities is almost never a good idea, while, if you anticipate an extended conquering push you should raze perfectly alright cities with a view of resettling them later. The latter only happens for me with rushes with very good offensive early UUs, such as the praetorians, quecha's and immortals on not to high a difficulty level. Since the OP was talking about using preatorians on monarch and razing everything in sight to avoid overexpanding, I assumed his attack would not stop at Paris.
 
Remember that on Monarch you won't find more than 4 AI cities in total at the time you usually go to war with pretorians. As upkeep is rather low on that difficulty, you should be fine keeping all those cities as long as they're well placed and somewhat useful. Especially the cities that already have improvements like a Granary or Lighthouse should be kept, unless they're worthless tundra stuff or something like that.

As long as you have

- writing
- pottery

you should be able to come out of the tech hole that early warfare usually means to your economy. Razing a city means at least 100 hammers for the new settler, and maybe even more hammers for all the buildings there might be. After all, it's a judgement call, but i'd strongly advice to keep Holy Cities and cities with wonders or settled specialists, as well as good cities with food and a decent placement.
 
The only time I raze is if the city is worthless to me, has no wonders, doesn't give me resources, and/or if the city is less than 4 tiles away from another city(where X=land and C=city, CXXC or CXXXC wil get razed almost all the time)
 
-9 at 50% research with praets is like a dream come true. I'm pretty happy when it's only -9 gpt at 0% research.
 
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