To which Vanilla Civs would you give an extra Alt Leader?

[Henri Christophe]

Genetic studies don't agree with you; they consistently show that the Egyptian population is autochthonous with minor influence from West Asia and much smaller influences from Sub-Saharan Africa (Nubians).

Genetics studies don't show far enoutgh the antiquiticity of Egypt, how can a Genetic Studies say how old is that population in Egypt?

 

[Zaarin]

Genetics studies don't show far enoutgh the antiquiticity of Egypt, how can a Genetic Studies say how old is that population in Egypt?

For one thing, mummies have DNA that can be compared to modern Egyptians. For another, an individual's genetic structure contains information about both their matriline and patriline from which we can deduce their ancestry. General point being that genetic studies have firmly demonstrated that the Egyptians have been in Egypt for thousands of years with very little influence from outside populations, with what little outside influence there is coming chiefly from the Levant and to a lesser extent from Nubia. The Egyptians have been demonstrated to be a very genetically conservative population.

 

[The Civs 6]

I disagree on that, I read in the book of Unesco called History of Africa, before the Assyrian invation the Egyptians had a darker skin, and after start migration from Levante making it races gradually become whiter.

Ramsés II should be way darker as it is in Civ 5, but, to avoid controversia I vote for the Nubian king who conquer egypt, he was black after the Whitenazation of Egypt

I just want to call this out - im not ethnologist, but this is a really weird claim. as I understand it, the Assyrians were Aramaic speakers (like the Israelites). It seems odd to equate Aramaic speakers with "whites". As in, one would think that at a minimum, the ethnicity or race of whites are confined to speakers of indo-european derived languages (passing lightly over the likely differences in melanin content between the two).

i feel pretty sorry if there is a substantial number of people who feel the same way that you do. in western culture, broad brush-strokes ideas about ethnicities/research/historical narratives were a fad about a century ago. And they have rightfully been condemned to the dustbin of history, not just because of the evil movements they inspired, but because they were wrong as a descriptive matter and were usually just vessels for an individual's biases about the world. it would be very unfortunate on many levels to see others repeat these same mistakes.

 

[Zaarin]

I just want to call this out - im not ethnologist, but this is a really weird claim. as I understand it, the Assyrians were Aramaic speakers (like the Israelites). It seems odd to equate Aramaic speakers with "whites". As in, one would think that at a minimum, the ethnicity or race of whites are confined to speakers of indo-european derived languages (passing lightly over the likely differences in melanin content between the two).

i feel pretty sorry if there is a substantial number of people who feel the same way that you do. in western culture, broad brush-strokes ideas about ethnicities/research/historical narratives were a fad about a century ago. And they have rightfully been condemned to the dustbin of history, not just because of the evil movements they inspired, but because they were wrong as a descriptive matter and were usually just vessels for an individual's biases about the world. it would be very unfortunate on many levels to see others repeat these same mistakes.

The word you want is "Semitic" rather than "Aramaic," but yes, this. If we take "white" as equivalent to "European," even calling all Indo-European-speakers white is rather questionable as that includes Sanskrit, Persian, Hittite, and others who were (are) indisputably Asian in culture.

 

[darkace77450]

China (Wu Zetian), Egypt (Ramesses), Spain (Isabella), and Russia (Catherine), with England (Elizabeth) as an honorable mention.

Edit: After some consideration, I'm changing my vote from Russia to France. It's not that I don't want Catherine in the game, but as others have pointed out, it would be hard to work her into the current Civ Ability without breaking things. Louis XIV should be in the game, and he should be able to spend gold to rush construction of medieval and renaissance wonders.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

The word you want is "Semitic" rather than "Aramaic," but yes, this. If we take "white" as equivalent to "European," even calling all Indo-European-speakers white is rather questionable as that includes Sanskrit, Persian, Hittite, and others who were (are) indisputably Asian in culture.

Magyars as well.

 

[Zaarin]

Magyars as well.

Magyars are Uralic, not Indo-European. While they come from Asia, I think they've been pretty heftily Europeanized, even if they still keep some memory of their erstwhile nomadic existence as a point of cultural pride.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Magyars are Uralic, not Indo-European. While they come from Asia, I think they've been pretty heftily Europeanized, even if they still keep some memory of their erstwhile nomadic existence as a point of cultural pride.

I'm really not doing well today in terms of history.

 

[Henri Christophe]

DNA of mummies survives until today to we do a good DNA exam, I don't think so, we just have the modern Egyptian DNA to look on and nowadays Egypt is full of mixing race with Arabs

 

[The Civs 6]

The word you want is "Semitic" rather than "Aramaic," but yes, this. If we take "white" as equivalent to "European," even calling all Indo-European-speakers white is rather questionable as that includes Sanskrit, Persian, Hittite, and others who were (are) indisputably Asian in culture.

Yeah thanks. This just goes to show you how nuanced this kind of discussion has to be, as opposed to just calling all non-sub-Saharan Africans "white".

DNA of mummies survives until today to we do a good DNA exam, I don't think so, we just have the modern Egyptian DNA to look on and nowadays Egypt is full of mixing race with Arabs

I think the title "black or white" says it all. Basically the evidence points to "neither".

And the world just isn't black or white. You see Manchu ruling China, Armenians ruling Eastern Rome, French and Germans ruling England, Germans running American armies against the Third Reich, Native Americans fighting on the side of slave-owning Confederates in the American Civil War, and so on. The more you scratch history, the less that these kind of labels really matter.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Should also point out that hair, eye and skin color are very dependent on climactic conditions and it doesn't take millenia to change. Homer (circa 800 BCE) uses the stock phrase "the blond Hellenes" in the Iliad and
Odyssey because the "Greeks" (Hellenes) had just arrived in Greece a few hundred years earlier from (probably) southern Russia, where being blond didn't mean dead of sunstroke before you were 15. Within another 1000 years, the 'Mediterranean' swarthier skin, darker eye and hair color was predominent in Greece - but as near as Thrace only a mountain or three to the north, there was a high proportion of red and blond hair, because the central Balkans was a distinctly Non-Mediterranean sun-filled climate - as was most of Macedonia.

And specifically Egypt was not next to a blinding desert throughout its history. Up until about 3900 BCE, the 'Sahara' wasn't. That was when the African Humid Period ended, and before that north Africa right up to the Mediterranean coast was a grassy savannah, full of lakes, rivers, scattered forest, and lots of grazing land. When the area dried out a number of hunter-gatherer groups that had lived there disappeared, and undoubtedly some of them moved east into Egypt - there are both early groups already in Egypt (Merimde, Badarian, Fayim) and also new ones that show up after 3900 BCE (Amratian, Gerzean, Maadi).
One should not expect skin color and other adaptations that are appropriate today to have been present 3 - 4000 years ago under different conditions or before new populations had completely adapted to new or changing environments.

What makes Blondes unsuitable to more heat of mediterranean and eventually becomes darker? Blondes being too senstive to UV sunlight?
And what are explainations why Asians who lived in the same 'cold' zones have very much different skin pigments (yellow or honey and not pink) and all black hair unlike the Europeans and much less different to Southeast Asians beyond slight different in skin tones (bronze or light chocolate) and facetype?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

What makes Blondes unsuitable to more heat of mediterranean and eventually becomes darker? Blondes being too senstive to UV sunlight?
And what are explainations why Asians who lived in the same 'cold' zones have very much different skin pigments (yellow or honey and not pink) and all black hair unlike the Europeans and much less different to Southeast Asians beyond slight different in skin tones (bronze or light chocolate) and facetype?

This is 'way Off Topic and the subject has spawned literally hundreds of scientific/DNA/genome studies, so I'll make it very brief:
Skin pigment in Humans is the result of several different particles, in which not only the type but the size and configuration of particles changes skin color. In other words, 'average' skin color is hugely variable.
The Default Human skin color is Dark. All the 'light skin' is an adaptation to Non-African Conditions, and there is some research indicating that Light Skin may have been introduced into the modern human genome from Homo Sapiens Neanderthalsis.
As a very basic equation, Light Skin = better production of Vitamin D from sunlight, and so is connected to adaptation to long periods without strong sunlight, like high latitude winters. Dark Skin = better protection from UV from the sun, which can cause deadly skin cancers.
Note that Strong sunlight conditions occur not only in the tropics, but also in continental climates (central North and South America, central Asia) so that darker skin is not necessarily a negative adaptation in those conditions. Also remember that Dark Skin is the Default - in the absence of pressing reasons for change, humans will be darker skinned than many in modern northern Europe or north America might consider 'normal'.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

May I have permission to create a thread like this except it's for the DLC Civs?

Edit: I'll take silence as a yes.

 

[Henri Christophe]

You see Manchu ruling China

Manchu are whiter than other chineses. The skin scale can be applied for every human being.

Egypt was called KHMET by itself before Greekification of Egypt names, Khmet also means coal, and coal is of the color Black.

 

[Zaarin]

Manchu are whiter than other chineses. The skin scale can be applied for every human being.

Egypt was called KHMET by itself before Greekification of Egypt names, Khmet also means coal, and coal is of the color Black.

Aside from the horrible implications of obsessing over skin color, kemet means "black earth," referring to the rich soil brought in by the inundations of the Nile. It has nothing to do with skin color. Also Egypt is from the Greek form of the Egyptian name for Memphis, which translates to "the Temple of the ka of Ptah," so it's still a native name by synecdoche.

 

[Henri Christophe]

That is the why the alternative leader of Egypt should be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piye PIYE


Because he is evidently Black and can be alternative leader to Nubia as well. A leader for 2 civilizations is always exciting!
ANd will make a good pair with Cleoptra we also are very sure about her whiteness Helenic

 

[aieeegrunt]

Germany for sure. If you want an HRE civ, make an HRE civ. If nothing else this would make the TSL Europe map actually playable by not having the German, French and English capitols on top of each other in a loyalty clusterfrack

Bismarck; Diplomacy abilities (he was hilariously anti-warmonger). UU is a buffed field gun

Frederick the Great; Military and culture focused abilities. UU is a buffed musketman

Arminius; Loyalty and Forest/Rainforest abilities. UU is a buffed warrior

I reread The Hobbit and LotR every year (and The Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, etc. every other year more or less), though alas, I haven't had time so far this year on account of my master's.

I am glad I am not the only one!

 

[Zaarin]

Germany for sure. If you want an HRE civ, make an HRE civ. If nothing else this would make the TSL Europe map actually playable by not having the German, French and English capitols on top of each other in a loyalty clusterfrack

Bismarck; Diplomacy abilities (he was hilariously anti-warmonger). UU is a buffed field gun

Frederick the Great; Military and culture focused abilities. UU is a buffed musketman

Arminius; Loyalty and Forest/Rainforest abilities. UU is a buffed warrior

I'm a little confused at objecting to Barbarossa for Germany but suggesting Arminius...

 

[aieeegrunt]

I'm a little confused at objecting to Barbarossa for Germany but suggesting Arminius...

Nobody expects the Cheruscan Inquisition!

I mean Bismarck and Frederick are no brainers, I was just trying to think outside the box a bit.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Nobody expects the Cheruscan Inquisition!

I mean Bismarck and Frederick are no brainers, I was just trying to think outside the box a bit.

Outside the Box Germans (at least compared to anything in Civ before):

Frederick Wilhelm of Prussia "The Great Elector"
Maximilian Emanuel of Bavaria "The Blue King"
Ludwig II of Bavaria "The Swan King"
Augustus the Strong of Saxony
Otto I the Great: "King of the Germans" 936 to 962, Holy Roman Emperor 962 to 973

Frederick Wilhelm started Prussia's military march to hegemony, Maximilian founded the standing Bavarian Army but also made Bavarian Blue a real color and so could be military and cultural, Augustus made his capital of Dresden one of the cultural centers of Europe, Otto defeated the Magyars at Lechfeld but also spread Christian 'Romanesque' cathedrals and churches throughout eastern Germany, so could be military-religious, and Ludwig built Neuschwanstein and Linderhof palaces and started others, could be the first great Tourism Leader in Civ!