Tonks: Tigers, Armatas, T-72 Alphabets

wasn't referencing any of your posts . A V-2 costs as much as a B-17 , carries far less explosives and is a one shot thing , in case it manages to land on the same continent with the target , ergo Nazis suck . While it is true Nazis are both lowlifes and nothing of the sort of the brilliant engineers they are supposed to be , the West and like the East had a very expensive obsession with the V-2 and stuff , because B-17s were shot down by the hundreds . Me-262 could have made the Allied air attacks very expensive , creating a fleeting moment of ease that might have let the German industry to fully disperse and let the production of those wonder weapons . The type XXI U-boot carried just one war patrol but there were hundreds of them afloat . Was like good until mid 50s , too .
 
the British doctrine for Cruiser tanks was finding a German anti-tank position and attack it head on . Early period of the war it was like a 50-50 proposition .
That doesn't sound very effective. :lol: I'm surprised it was even 50-50.

The Cromwell was an OK tank. Probably the first of the British "cruisers" than can be considered such. It'd've looked a lot better had it reached service a year or two earlier though.

British tank design in the WW2 era was in general a mess. The Matilda II was a decent early war infantry tank (though that role itself had its flaws) while the Valentine was actually pretty good for its time, if limited in its upgrade potential. But after those two, it starts looking pretty bad. The cruisers, as I said, were not remotely good up till the Cromwell - and the Covenanter in particular almost managed to make the others look good. The Churchill was...probably better than it had any right to be, but was still a deeply flawed design. The Valiant was...the Valiant. It wasn't until the Comet that British designers came up with another genuinely good tank, and even that, like the Cromwell before it, was probably a year or so late compared to it's compatriots.

And then immediately after the war, they came up with far and away the best tank in the world in the form of the Centurion. Odd how it goes.
I liked the Comet and Centurion too. Of course those were superior tanks, both in the game and irl, but somehow the Cromwell just hit the perfect balance for me. iirc, the Centurion was the first British "universal tank", irl.

I also like the Churchills, both in the game and irl. There's something about a tank with a phone on the back bumper that makes me smile. I mean, I know why it was there, it's just a funny visual. Unfortunately, the climbing and terrain-crossing abilities of the Churchill was something the game wasn't able to accommodate, but I think the Churchills were probably the final evolution of that style of slow brute. The Black Prince was cool too, the Churchill with the Sherman Firefly's 17-lb gun. I don't know if that ever saw any action, irl.

Wikipedia notes that the Royal Marines' Centaur was a Cromwell with a howitzer instead of the AT gun, and didn't have the Merlin engine, so was probably slower. I suppose it was used to support the infantry rather than engage enemy tanks, but I'm not sure how well a Cromwell with a howitzer would serve as an infantry tank. Maybe the Churchills were too heavy or too squat for the Marines to use in an amphibious landing.

Though I too did like the British tanks in WoT, mainly because of their accurate, relatively fast firing guns. The high teir mediums in particular were a joy to play. Pity the game moved more and more towards Soviet boomsticks being the optimal weapons. Not that I've played for probably 6-7 years now, maybe even more.
I haven't played in several years, either. A month or two ago, I looked up some of QuickyBaby's recent videos, and it looks like the game has added a lot.
 
The Black Prince never went past the prototype stage. Even though, to my understanding, it performed OK, the war was coming to an end, and the Centurion, with the same gun, was already in pretty advanced development, so it wasn't considered worth developing further. A/The (not sure how many were made) prototype is at Bovington.
 
However, the Panther was imo the most beautiful tank design of WW2. Took a pic of the one on display in the Panzermuseum in Münster.
Yes it was!
 
Forget HMS Hood, TOG's the most beautiful ship ever built!
 
About 60 years ago as a kid I started assembling and painting airfix kit tanks.

IIRC the T34 was the easiest, the Tiger 1 was the hardest, kit to assemble.
 
italians were "easy" ; their guns were mostly weak . The startling victory in North Africa was the result . Germans had it nailed down scientifically , British charges into German positions regularly outdid the Charge of the Light Brigade . Have no idea whether there are any poems about it .
 
About 60 years ago as a kid I started assembling and painting airfix kit tanks.

IIRC the T34 was the easiest, the Tiger 1 was the hardest, kit to assemble.
I used to love the old matchbox kits with their little dioramas
 
An array of German tank destroyers at Aberdeen. Front to back, I think we have a Jagdpanzer, a Jagdpanther, and an Elefant (aka Ferdinand). I can't make out what the dark green one in the back is, and I think there might be one of the small ones tucked behind the Elefant. Could be a Marder. I don't see a Hetzer here.

 
Many tank fan here. Don't if you know this game where you can design your own tank:


It is in early access but works.
 
The concept of the MBT or "universal" tank was being developed independantly by all the nations involved in tank production by the early 40s. The Panther was possibly the first to make it into service (though it probably wasn't quite there yet - the Centurion was likely the first tank to enter service that could truly be considered universal), but it wasn't particularly influential on any other nations designs.

If the Nazis had had more industrial and/or logistical muscle....thay still would have been much better of building an easily mass produced 35t tank instead of the overweight, overengineered Panther. Hell, look at what the nations that did have the logistical and industrial muscle foused on - the Sherman and T-34. Now to be clear, when I saying how good a tank is, I'm not talking about "which one would win in a 1v1 shootout". Beacuse that very rarely happened. I'm focusing on which would contribute more to winning the war. That's what matters in a weapon. And two Shermans are way more useful when it comes to winning a war than one Panther.
Yeah, that's just way too generalized to be a useful argument. In reality you have tanks, their crews, the fuel and the resources needed to build them. You can 't just ignore part of that equation. Germany could not possibly win a numbers game. That's a complete nonstarter.
Opting for more "cheaper" tanks wouldn't have done any good at all, it would probably have lead to even worse results. More tanks means you need more fuel, something Germany was already lacking. One Panther may have used more of that than a Panzer IV, but it used less than two Panzer IVs. And that comparison becomes even more tilted when it matches up against something heavier than a Panzer IV. Then there is the issue of crews. One tank needs five men, two tanks need ten. And not only that, they also require twice the amount of training, and training required more fuel. Simply put, going with quality over quantity was the right decision, more lighter tanks wouldn't have worked at all. The end result has nothing to do with the tanks being at fault, and everything to do with facing enemies with far more industrial might and manpower. Tank crews were a specialised group of people, something not easy to replenish with waning manpower. Germany neither had the numbers left to equip far more tanks, nor the fuel to train the crews or operate them. The only choice they had, was to protect their relatively rare tank-crews with tanks that gave them the highest chance of survival.

And since it has been brought up, the T-34 like Panther model had significant issues that were far worse than those of the actual Panther. That's the reason why they went with the Panther. These people weren't stupid. There may have been the odd political interference now and then, but in the case of the Panther and the Tiger, the chosen model was chosen because it was the one that worked better and had less issues.

That doesn't even cover that reliability always depends on the situation and the available materials. At the end of the war, Germany had to rush things and also ran out of good materials. That's two big issues. They neither had the time nor the resources to fix that. They were basically down to opting for the hail mary with everything they attempted. It's not like the Shermans or T-34 were highly reliable from the get go either. The Shermans had quite the issues early on, while the T-34 was a tire-fire of epic proportions that made the Panther's at Kursk look like the pinnacle of engineering, before hard-earned experience and wartime development allowed for significant improvements. Just take a glance at early Soviet lossses during Barbarossa. Most of the T-34s didn't even reach the front, in part because they broke down because of significant design-flaws, in part because units were banned from training with the tanks to prevent said breakdowns, leading to them having little idea how to operate the tanks. And if there is one thing that gets a tank to break down quicker than anything else, it is a crew that has no idea how to handle it. The Panther's reliability somehow gets judged by its earliest performances, yet the T-34's reliability gets judged by the late war versions that had all kinks removed, not in the timeframes that are comparable to the Panther, and msot definately not by its own early stages.

As for the Tiger:
It seems that many people just don't get what it was designed for. It didn't come into existance because German leadership was after ever-larger tanks and Wonderweapons. It was designed for a very specific purpose, never as a tank to replace Panzer III or IVs. The Tiger was meant as a breakthrough tank. It was to engage a defensive line and cause a breakthrough. Once that had been achieved, the Pz IIIs and IVs would exploit the gap, while the Tigers would be called back for maintence. Not only did the Germans know that the Tigers would be maintenance-heavy, they even planned for just that (outside of spare-parts, which Germany somehow forgot about with every piece of equipment) with much higher maintenance intervals. The reason why all this didn't work out, is because by the time the Tiger was actually entereing service in larger numbers, Germany was mostly done with attempting breakthroughs. What happened then, was that these tanks - as by far the most powerful units around - were shifted from one hotspot to another, playing fire-brigade. This was the complete anti-thesis of what they were designed for. They were meant for short, pitched battles followed by a maintenance-period, after which they would be transported to the next spot from which to launch an offensive. Instead they fought prolonged battles, before being rushed to the next point of collapsing defense with little to no maintenance in between. In quite a few cases the tanks weren't even transported but had to be driven there, which was a further burden on reliability.
The Tigers were excellent for their planned role. They still excelled in some parts in a role that went completely against their purpose. They became propaganda-tools thanks to that, not the other way round. The issues didn't lay with the tank-design, but with German leaders having to constantly throw everything they could spare into battles, with no regard for maintenance or usability. Tanks that would break down due to overuse were still better than having no tanks around at all.
 
An array of German tank destroyers at Aberdeen. Front to back, I think we have a Jagdpanzer, a Jagdpanther, and an Elefant (aka Ferdinand). I can't make out what the dark green one in the back is, and I think there might be one of the small ones tucked behind the Elefant. Could be a Marder. I don't see a Hetzer here.

The third one looks more like a Jagdtiger to me. It has a sloped front and a cone-shaped Blende, while the Elefant had a stepped front of mostly vertical elements.
 
The third one looks more like a Jagdtiger to me. It has a sloped front and a cone-shaped Blende, while the Elefant had a stepped front of mostly vertical elements.
Yes, I think you're right. The gun mantlet here looks like the "puffy" one on the Jagdtiger, whereas the Elefant had the flat gun shield, like a washer on a pipe.
 
An array of German tank destroyers at Aberdeen.

stug behind the Jagdtiger . The green one is a Su-85/100 type . The one behind seems to be a SPG .
 
once again simplified history . Hitler's anger did not delay the Me-262 programme because it was already delayed on its own and fighter bomber sorties by 262s could have done much against tne Normandy landings , if they could have been mounted on time . 10000 Allied fighters and units already beyond the shoreline only meant extreme losses for Luftwaffe when they had enough conventional planes in France to attack .

the good side victory is assured , nobody needs to prove the bad side sucks or something .

the British doctrine for Cruiser tanks was finding a German anti-tank position and attack it head on . Early period of the war it was like a 50-50 proposition . Later the British got Shermans and air/artillery support got much better .

This one's true the concept was fine. Fast bombwr tgat coukd evade normal fighters.

Development as Fighter/bomber feeds into the mad Hitler narrative but the delay was the engined anyway.

Alot of the experimental weapons even if flawed used different fuels which was the critical chokepoint.

Traditional narrative Germans should gave built more XYZ and idiotic superweapons.

Reality they couldn't fuel more tanks, planes etc anyway the euperweapon goncept was often fine but they were unable to execute.
Some things were absurd in concept as well eg Maus, E-100, HE 162.

Why build a rocket plane? Fuel issues. Why build a jet plane out of wood. Resource issues etc.

The wunderwaffe weren't signs of German technological supremacy but desperation.
 
once again , a lack of full knowledge about the sort of the targets the Maus was supposed to tackle . The 1000 ton tank is Russian in origin , designed under the leadership of a German in mid 30s . He started the Ratte . And He-162 was designed faster than drones are designed these days and it was only the delays in the Me-262 , no , actually the Fw-190 effort in 1941-2 that it lacked the breathing space to be fully developed . And its poor weapons and pathetic chance of survival for the pilot would have meant nothing to the Japanese .
 
Yeah, that's just way too generalized to be a useful argument. In reality you have tanks, their crews, the fuel and the resources needed to build them. You can 't just ignore part of that equation. Germany could not possibly win a numbers game. That's a complete nonstarter.
Opting for more "cheaper" tanks wouldn't have done any good at all, it would probably have lead to even worse results. More tanks means you need more fuel, something Germany was already lacking. One Panther may have used more of that than a Panzer IV, but it used less than two Panzer IVs. And that comparison becomes even more tilted when it matches up against something heavier than a Panzer IV. Then there is the issue of crews. One tank needs five men, two tanks need ten. And not only that, they also require twice the amount of training, and training required more fuel. Simply put, going with quality over quantity was the right decision, more lighter tanks wouldn't have worked at all. The end result has nothing to do with the tanks being at fault, and everything to do with facing enemies with far more industrial might and manpower. Tank crews were a specialised group of people, something not easy to replenish with waning manpower. Germany neither had the numbers left to equip far more tanks, nor the fuel to train the crews or operate them. The only choice they had, was to protect their relatively rare tank-crews with tanks that gave them the highest chance of survival.

And since it has been brought up, the T-34 like Panther model had significant issues that were far worse than those of the actual Panther. That's the reason why they went with the Panther. These people weren't stupid. There may have been the odd political interference now and then, but in the case of the Panther and the Tiger, the chosen model was chosen because it was the one that worked better and had less issues.

That doesn't even cover that reliability always depends on the situation and the available materials. At the end of the war, Germany had to rush things and also ran out of good materials. That's two big issues. They neither had the time nor the resources to fix that. They were basically down to opting for the hail mary with everything they attempted. It's not like the Shermans or T-34 were highly reliable from the get go either. The Shermans had quite the issues early on, while the T-34 was a tire-fire of epic proportions that made the Panther's at Kursk look like the pinnacle of engineering, before hard-earned experience and wartime development allowed for significant improvements. Just take a glance at early Soviet lossses during Barbarossa. Most of the T-34s didn't even reach the front, in part because they broke down because of significant design-flaws, in part because units were banned from training with the tanks to prevent said breakdowns, leading to them having little idea how to operate the tanks. And if there is one thing that gets a tank to break down quicker than anything else, it is a crew that has no idea how to handle it. The Panther's reliability somehow gets judged by its earliest performances, yet the T-34's reliability gets judged by the late war versions that had all kinks removed, not in the timeframes that are comparable to the Panther, and msot definately not by its own early stages.

As for the Tiger:
It seems that many people just don't get what it was designed for. It didn't come into existance because German leadership was after ever-larger tanks and Wonderweapons. It was designed for a very specific purpose, never as a tank to replace Panzer III or IVs. The Tiger was meant as a breakthrough tank. It was to engage a defensive line and cause a breakthrough. Once that had been achieved, the Pz IIIs and IVs would exploit the gap, while the Tigers would be called back for maintence. Not only did the Germans know that the Tigers would be maintenance-heavy, they even planned for just that (outside of spare-parts, which Germany somehow forgot about with every piece of equipment) with much higher maintenance intervals. The reason why all this didn't work out, is because by the time the Tiger was actually entereing service in larger numbers, Germany was mostly done with attempting breakthroughs. What happened then, was that these tanks - as by far the most powerful units around - were shifted from one hotspot to another, playing fire-brigade. This was the complete anti-thesis of what they were designed for. They were meant for short, pitched battles followed by a maintenance-period, after which they would be transported to the next spot from which to launch an offensive. Instead they fought prolonged battles, before being rushed to the next point of collapsing defense with little to no maintenance in between. In quite a few cases the tanks weren't even transported but had to be driven there, which was a further burden on reliability.
The Tigers were excellent for their planned role. They still excelled in some parts in a role that went completely against their purpose. They became propaganda-tools thanks to that, not the other way round. The issues didn't lay with the tank-design, but with German leaders having to constantly throw everything they could spare into battles, with no regard for maintenance or usability. Tanks that would break down due to overuse were still better than having no tanks around at all.

What made the Panther "good" was the 75mm L/70 and it's optics. Compared to a T-34 they foukd fire twice as far and twice as fast.

Thise big boxy German tanks were more comfortable for the crews meaning faster reloads. In combat conditions they coukdbonlybfire sound golf their theoretical fire rate.

So in my alternative history they're not making more tanks they're naming a better Panzer IV and a lighter Over all numbers won't change so much.

My hypothetical Panzer IV/V is basically getting a 75mm L/70 onto soneth8ng like the Panzer IV

The lighter Panter idea something similar more reliable lighter rank using its mobility and reliability. Panthers armor won't protect the crew if it breaks down. Use that 75mm L/70 to maximum effect on a different tank.
 
And then immediately after the war, they came up with far and away the best tank in the world in the form of the Centurion. Odd how it goes.

The grand daddy of modern MBTs. Also the first tank to feature a gun stabilizer. Knowing the Brits, I'm sure they also included a tea kettle and a rack for cups and spoons.

Bah, nothing will ever beat the paragon of beauty that is the TOG II:

Spoiler :

Looking at that, very fittingly 'tog' translates to 'train' in Danish. :)
 
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