Tools against Too Much Gold

sorcdk

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Back in late v38 I ran several games with more or less insane increases to city maintenance, getting close to the point where you could go bankrupt on on a single city or not really afford to expand at all in late prehistoric/early ancient era. What I found was that as ages go past and you get into classical and medieval era those maintenance cost still ended up getting small compared to your income.

The conclusion of that was that with the scale of golf income going on it did not seem possible to handle the "too much gold" from the angle of city maintenance. Considering that the old inflation, with its various problems have been more or less sterilised, then we cannot even use that to kind of deal with the problem.

In response to this I have come up with two suggestions for handling the "too much gold" problem:
1) Change the scaling on city maintenance. Currently costs for a new city scale linearly with number of cities and distance to capital. We could change this to say quadratic scaling, which would increase the range where adding more cities would still be a significant cost, which in turn would limit very wide empires and give value to gold income.
2) Reduce the scaling of global brutto income to sub-linear. This would work somewhat similar to wastage on food surplus, in that it would provide diminishing returns on further investment. The big difference is that it would be applied globally and on income instead of profit. This would have an effect similar to increasing maintenance costs, but affect the general balance differently, in that other expenses would also be affected, and that surplus gold would grow slower. The phenomenon behind this would mainly be corruption and inflation. Here is how I imagine that the formular would look: G = g/S, where g is the brutto global income and G is the effective global income (which is then substracted from expenses). S= [1 +a*log(g)]*[g/c]^b, where a, b and c are variables that can be chosen and possibly modified by civics, wonders, and difficulty. All of this would naturally need some clamping to prevent problems at low g. I would suggest starting values around a=1, b=0,5, and c=1000, as this would create a noticeable diminishing return early that still allows for reasonable scaling to a few cities, and later on the huge income would have a square root applied to it, which should keep maintenance and such relevant into the middle eras. Note that the reduction in efficiency as you earn more money will provide a similar effect to the increased inflation when you rush buy units or buildings, from the simple fact that it was that much harder to produce that last bit of gold. Thematically the logarithmic turn comes from corruption/beuocracy, based on the idea that as your civ becomes larger there are more and more layers of administration that can take a piece of the pie, and the amount of layers money would have to pass through is generally logarithmic. The geometric term would then thematically be based on inflation and the commonality of goods, where the more you can get of each thing the less they become worth. Thematically early empires had a lot of trouble with corruption and beuocracy, while inflation and commonality of goods is more influential later in history, which reflects well in how their effects are staggered.

There are several pros and cons to these tools, and I invite you to discuss them and see whether any of them or perhaps some combination would be useful for the current or future gold balance.
 
hmm... there's a few mathematic terms I'm unsure I follow you on here and ... 'brutto'? It sounds like it's a well thought out proposal but I'm unable to follow it.
 
When he says 'brutto' he means 'gross', as in before 'deductions'.
 
OK, well that clears that part up a bit. Thanks. Also, corruption is included in the model now with crime, though we could make it more explicit with another crime autobuild or set of increasingly problematic ones.
 
When I 1st started changing the Civics I reduced the gold Civics allowed the same as I did Beakers for early Science. But the very People that have complained about "too much gold" for years were the ones to pitch a fit and protest. Plus make snide and churlish comments as well. So I backed the Gold reduction off somewhat in the early game.

Civics that come after Classical are still in testing. Albeit slowed down some because of a health issue. I'm not spending 4-8 hours a day playing out test games atm.

But I also determined it was also necessary to let players acclimate to the early Civics before progressing to the mid game Civics. Sometimes players do not see what is happening right away. Or how certain Civics (in this case) interconnect to each other or are foils to a set of patterns used in the past. Patterns that are now changing.

If the Team decides to take Gold leveraging out of Civics that would simplify what Civics can influence. But imhpo I think that would be a bad general idea. Simpler Civics would reduce Civics impact in game play overall. But would instead have to create major bottlenecks or a major turn of course for the empire to be effective. And as can be seen simplicity is not the goal or design of this Mod.

I have found that many many players that complain about "too much Gold" use weaknesses of the game base design to build up their huge surpluses. Or play at a Difficulty level that is below their own skill level. Which again exploits inherent weaknesses that a lower skilled player has not figured out yet.

So the balancing act is not a 1 trick pony that fixes everything. Sometimes I wish that this was so. (But then players would get bored with the Mod if that were true.:p Can't have that now can we!) Instead it's a slow process of trial and error testing to see how it plays out. Auto games can not give this depth of game play interaction or overall feel. Only truly played games can.
 
If the Team decides to take Gold leveraging out of Civics that would simplify what Civics can influence.
What do you mean by this? I think it's the term 'gold leveraging' that I'm curious about just so I can follow further what you're trying to say.
 
This was not really intended to simplify how civics work with gold, but rather give more nobs on the gold model to turn.
Currently the two main methods to affect the gold model is increasing gold income and reducing costs (mainly city maintenance), and in the first few eras these are mainly getting improved until you reach a point where gold is not that much of an issue and you can trade some of those bonuses for bonuses to other things. The second tool would allow for changing gold income in other ways, such as civics that boost base gold income but make the diminishing returns steeper, and others that would do the opposite. This would allow more useful choices where one does not need to just be a straight upgrade of the other. Also because those tools would increase the amount of gold you need to produce later in the game there would also be room for more gold increase later in the game.
 
What do you mean by this? I think it's the term 'gold leveraging' that I'm curious about just so I can follow further what you're trying to say.
leverage
[ˈlev(ə)rij, ˈlēv(ə)rij]
VERB
leveraging (present participle)
  1. use borrowed capital for (an investment), expecting the profits made to be greater than the interest payable.
    "without clear legal title to their assets, they own property that cannot be leveraged as collateral for loans" ·
    [more]
  2. use (something) to maximum advantage.
    "the organization needs to leverage its key resources"
 
leverage
[ˈlev(ə)rij, ˈlēv(ə)rij]
VERB
leveraging (present participle)
  1. use borrowed capital for (an investment), expecting the profits made to be greater than the interest payable.
    "without clear legal title to their assets, they own property that cannot be leveraged as collateral for loans" ·
    [more]
  2. use (something) to maximum advantage.
    "the organization needs to leverage its key resources"
That doesn't explain what you're trying to say. If you're saying that you feel that gold should be largely controlled through civics, I generally agree. This leveraging concept is just a vague statement that isn't getting into details.
 
This was not really intended to simplify how civics work with gold, but rather give more nobs on the gold model to turn.
Currently the two main methods to affect the gold model is increasing gold income and reducing costs (mainly city maintenance), and in the first few eras these are mainly getting improved until you reach a point where gold is not that much of an issue and you can trade some of those bonuses for bonuses to other things. The second tool would allow for changing gold income in other ways, such as civics that boost base gold income but make the diminishing returns steeper, and others that would do the opposite. This would allow more useful choices where one does not need to just be a straight upgrade of the other. Also because those tools would increase the amount of gold you need to produce later in the game there would also be room for more gold increase later in the game.
Put that way, this sounds like some good stuff.
 
That doesn't explain what you're trying to say. If you're saying that you feel that gold should be largely controlled through civics, I generally agree. This leveraging concept is just a vague statement that isn't getting into details.
I think he says that currently civics - trough their maintenance cost modifiers - are used to reduce gold income.
He says, that civics would be easier to balance as there would be fever factors on them.
For example modifiers could scale more aggressively past certain city amount/population/distance.
They could be tied to routes and techs - for example converting from paved roads to railroads would lower maintaince.
Things like Writing or Computers could lower maintaince - on beginning it could be very high (scaled by world size).

Also conquering entire world shouldn't be possible in Prehistoric era - it is easiest to do on Eternity speed.
Maybe supply costs should scale linearly - that is far away units should cost more than near units.
 
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That doesn't explain what you're trying to say. If you're saying that you feel that gold should be largely controlled through civics, I generally agree. This leveraging concept is just a vague statement that isn't getting into details.
I'll stop using big words from now on. :p But I'm Not going to write a 4 page discourse for you either. I think I explained it sufficiently anyway.
If the Team decides to take Gold leveraging out of Civics that would simplify what Civics can influence. But imhpo I think that would be a bad general idea. Simpler Civics would reduce Civics impact in game play overall. But would instead have to create major bottlenecks or a major turn of course for the empire to be effective. And as can be seen simplicity is not the goal or design of this Mod.

I have found that many many players that complain about "too much Gold" use weaknesses of the game base design to build up their huge surpluses. Or play at a Difficulty level that is below their own skill level. Which again exploits inherent weaknesses that a lower skilled player has not figured out yet.
Perhaps I should not have broken this into 2 paragraphs as it seems to have confused you.
 
I'll stop using big words from now on. :p But I'm Not going to write a 4 page discourse for you either. I think I explained it sufficiently anyway.
It's not that. I am simply saying that you aren't being specific. I don't see how what you're saying even applies. He's not saying that we should be using civics to control gold any less so why did you even say this? In fact, he's saying he wants to add tools for greater ability to control gold through civics without it being entirely linear.
 
It's not that. I am simply saying that you aren't being specific. I don't see how what you're saying even applies. He's not saying that we should be using civics to control gold any less so why did you even say this? In fact, he's saying he wants to add tools for greater ability to control gold through civics without it being entirely linear.

My 1st post was informational for what I'm attempting to accomplish with Civic overhaul/balancing to @sorcdk. No more no less. Apparently that was not obvious enough for you. :dunno: The word leveraging, what every player does with his particular game flow, does threw you for a loop. Sometimes you dive way too deep when it's only shallow water.

And No I am not being specific to sorcdk's post. Never intended it to be Nor do I Want it To be either. Understand? That just leads to headaches. I don't need them.
 
My 1st post was informational for what I'm attempting to accomplish with Civic overhaul/balancing to @sorcdk. No more no less. Apparently that was not obvious enough for you. :dunno: The word leveraging, what every player does with his particular game flow, does threw you for a loop. Sometimes you dive way too deep when it's only shallow water.

And No I am not being specific to sorcdk's post. Never intended it to be Nor do I Want it To be either. Understand? That just leads to headaches. I don't need them.
You made a vague comment (it's still vague) and I just wanted to understand your opinion further. My apologies for caring.
 
My 1st post was informational for what I'm attempting to accomplish with Civic overhaul/balancing to @sorcdk. No more no less. Apparently that was not obvious enough for you. :dunno: The word leveraging, what every player does with his particular game flow, does threw you for a loop. Sometimes you dive way too deep when it's only shallow water.

And No I am not being specific to sorcdk's post. Never intended it to be Nor do I Want it To be either. Understand? That just leads to headaches. I don't need them.

I have to admit that when reading your first post I did not really catch exactly what you meant with gold leveraging, and I think you have had some insight from your work on civics for how gold interacts with civics, that the rest of us is still missing. That said, if we ignore the exact wording, then my impression of that section was that you were afraid we were moving to simplify gold on civics.

I also have to admit that I do belong to the group of players playing below their difficulty, though my specific gold settings came from modded difficulty settings, that made the gold costs on nightmare look like easy mode (nightmare have settings around 200-250% IIRC, while I was using numbers around 800-2500% IIRC), and it still wasn't possible to curb the eventual high amounts of gold income compared to maintenance costs. This is why I thought we would need new tools if we were to make gold a more valuable resource (which became more apparent with trying to find out how valuable the complex traits where in practice).

Concerning the crowd that clamours the creed of "Too Much Gold", then I am not really sure what to say. I can say that the apparent effect of needing gold early game (this doesn't mean that was the true effect) was not exactly in the area they were looking for (late ancient and forward), which could have made it look like a frustrating effort in the wrong place to such people. Personally I kind of like the new power curve, though I am not too fond of the massive reliance on cap only debuffs (on top of the all cities debuffs), since it makes it really weird when you conquer an AI very early.
 
I have an idea that I think might work, but it would take a bit of time to balance.

In the start of the game, you have a massive -95%:gold: penalty through civics that goes down throughout the game until the mid modern era where it hits -0%:gold:. Simultaneously, maintenance cost penalties are almost non-existent, but increase as the game goes on to be slightly less than the average produced :gold:. :gold: maintenance for buildings stay what they are, and the power of +%:gold: buildings are either changed to flat :gold: bonuses or reduced sharply.

What this models, IMO, is the efficiency of tax collection which is incredibly inefficient in the early eras. Since running a surplus would be so rare in the early era, it makes expansion very economically restrictive, causing players to really think whether a new city is economically sustainable similar to base Civ4.
 
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During my last game i was not running at 100% research speed at any point of the game, dropping as low as 70% at some point before climbing back to 90% around the time gunpower was invented.
Late game new buildings only provided a small amount of gold compared to my total income but maintenance reduction building could give huge boosts(one courthouse gave +100 gold on a oversea's city when build).
The other main source of gold was tax offices those reduce maintenance as well.
 
Bump for the Village Hall line buildings increasing maintenance... Considering the above, shouldn't maintenance-increasing building have pretty dramatic effects ?
(I guess Metropolitan Administration counts if you require it for Workable Radius 3 ?)

Or are you just supposed to avoid these buildings if you're playing "wide" ?
(Kind of weird though...)
 
Bump for the Village Hall line buildings increasing maintenance... Considering the above, shouldn't maintenance-increasing building have pretty dramatic effects ?
(I guess Metropolitan Administration counts if you require it for Workable Radius 3 ?)

Or are you just supposed to avoid these buildings if you're playing "wide" ?
(Kind of weird though...)
I play "wide" most of the time and years ago I learned to avoid adding the Village Hall line of buildings "too early". The Changes I did to early Civics and then KatiON's re-ordering of the Tech tree (very significant to the Civic progression which had to be adapted too) made the Village Hall line usage sometimes used earlier than I wanted for my playstyle. But I'm learning to adapt to it. I still use the Larger Cities w/o Metro Admin Option in all my games.
 
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