Trade vessels and caravans.

daft

The fargone
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I might be the only one but I miss caravans from Civ 1 and 2.
Vote for bringing them back to boost your economy. They would establish trade routes between cities.
Also, or instead of caravans would like to see trade vessels available to be built in your coastal cities. This type of a unit would cash in excellent amounts of gold to the builder, the further away the (coastal) city you can successfully send it to(it would have to enter that city from coastal square-after that it would disappear). If the city you manage to send to your trade vessel successfully carries goods that the destination city demands then your reward would be even greater.
 
If the city you manage to send to your trade vessel successfully carries goods that the destination city demands then your reward would be even greater.

Do you mean actually shipping around copies of resources, instead of trading them through the diplo screen? That sounds very interesting actually.
 
Current setting with the diplomacy screen is quite boring, so I find.
More luxuries could be added to the game as well. Sending merchant ships off to the richest and far away cities of the globe by caravans over land and trading(merchant) vessels through seas to boost economy of your cities as well as population's happiness within them.
Nations such as Netherlands, Portugal, Carthage(Phoenicia-if it was included), could have their own types of trading ships which would produce even more gold upon successful trade mission.
Ships like these would have to be escorted by war ships as they would have no or little armaments on board and be likely to be attacked by barbarian pirates as well as enemies.
.Looking for alternative trade model in future Civ games, something more engaging then the current system. In the past this is how trade was successfully accomplished, you could have signed all the diplomatic agreements you wanted but the actual trade happened through horse/wagon on land and naval vessels by sea.
I'm just floating this stuff out there, some of these ideas might be old or undoable, no hard feelings?
 
I think manually moving trade ships is just a terrible idea especially if you want a game to support more than 1 trade route.

That said, what you are getting to have some merit and should be explored.

One thing I miss in Civ4/5 is the monopolization of resources, and while allowing a Civ to monopolize resources have other knock on effects that may lead the developers away from allowing it, one can still achieve a similar effect to a monopoly by being rewarded 'first mover' advantages.

So this ties into the circumnavigation bonus people have been asking for. Similarly, one can envisage a situation where if you're the first to establish trading links for a particular resources with another Civ, there will, over time, build up inertial factors take make the breaking of that link harder.

As the same time, Civs coming into a contact with a luxury or resource for the first time may be willing to pay a premium for it. And as such, establishing trading links first will ensure you establish a kind of trading empire that collects economic rents even as the world opens up.

There will have to be several other mechanics at play here
1) trading 'interests' in both empires will want to keep the route going which allows for the trade route to remain and prices high
2) as the world opens up and rival/alternative sources of the same luxury are found, there will be a downward pressure on price, so it becomes a bit of a balancing act to lower your price over time just enough to maintain the trading, but still collect gpt well above what you would otherwise collect

2b) This also has the side effect whereby partial monopoly of a luxury, which is quite possible in many Civ games could allow you to control prices and better protect your cash cow trades.


Net effect is that this will rewards exploration, establishing of resource colonies for trading purposes and long lasting trades and price luxuries (resources) more dynamically.
I put resources in brackets here because I think for reasons of game balance, monopoly or scarcity of resources like iron/coal/aluminium would likely be detrimental to the game balance so those may be widely spread so all civs will have minimal local access. So I would assume this sort of mechanic would be more applicable towards luxuries.
 
Manually moving like 15 trade routes as Venice every turn doesn't sound like a good idea. The current trade route system is one of the better features Civ 5 introduced and I hope it returns in Civ 6 hopefully with a better UI.

But the current luxury trading system using diplomacy sucks and really should have been replaced when GnKs or BNW came out. Luxury trading wastes a lot of time and doesn't add anything interesting at all and is a throwback to how bad Civ 5 was when it shipped.
The luxury resource system should either be rebuilt from the ground up with trade routes or simply removed altogether.
 
you have trade routes which u can build caravans, so either have to end one of those early if one of your cities or another civ requests a resource, with possible negative diplo from the civ whose route u ended mid transit; or maybe have a set number of trade routes you can pick by setting cities like now and have the ability to have a number of reserve ones you can keep in reserve fleet for cases when another leader offers a deal for a resource you have. these would have to have more status, and would be likely be armed unlike normal caravans or trade ships. i would see the specifically requested resources as being only used for those occasions. if you dont have enough of the special diplo trade ships one of your regular trade ships or caravans will need to be reassigned, but if a leader requests a trade it should be able to be done even if you maxed your normal trade routes already.
the really valuable stuff was often carried by warships rather than cargo ships and escorted, maybe you could assign one of your frigates or privateers to a requested trade from another civ rather than a normal trade ship, or if you are already running max normal civilian routes.
 
cities produce their own luxuries and have their own needs, like:
city located in desert with a nearby oasis might produce: dates, figs, palm tree oil, camels, besides oil. City like this would be willing to trade these goods for: timber, fresh water, temperate climate produce, even Ice, or fish.
Cities surrounded by Tundra would be willing to trade their furs for tropical fruits and spices,
you could trade like this between your own cities(less pay), or foreign ones(more profitable), mercantile leaders would get their unit/advantage in dealings with other nations, once Automobile is researched it would get easier/faster,
stuff like this, might be too complicated to include in the game, though
 
hey i asked you for ice and you sent water?

- sorry no refunds its in the treaty!
:lol:
 
Some cool ideas here.

I've mixed feelings about the manually moving trade units - I agree that it could become cumbersome, but think that the option to have them automated like workers (which you can control manually if desired) is the no brainer answer. In this light, I just don't see it as an issue.

What I do see as an issue if the mess they've made of trade - I know a lot of people like, but we now have two different places we have to go in order to establish any sort of trade - one through the diplo screen, and one via the individual trade unit.

My answer to this would be to remove the cap on trade routes to start, and then have the diplomatic agreements spawn trade units that carry the trade goods to the receiving civ.

Additionally, the trade / cargo unit should have an option for way points with requested goods, so one unit could service more than one route, or have a larger route.

So, for example; A cargo ship
Home port: London - exports iron to Rome, picks up Horses
Ships horses to Nottingham, exports bananas to Atlanta, picks up X amount in gold
Drops off gold at London, rinse, repeat cycle

Until it's raided by barbarians or a Civ you're at war with, in which case they get the goods (and presumably the unit).

Anyway, just a thought.
 
thats pretty cool idea too.
if the trade units are spawned by agreeing a deal then no need to construct them. would there be a screen where you set home port, then eventual end destination of route and it tells you what ports are close enough to the direct route to add as waypoints, which have a trade good needing transport. maybe other nations could ask you to transport and pay you...
 
thats pretty cool idea too.
if the trade units are spawned by agreeing a deal then no need to construct them. would there be a screen where you set home port, then eventual end destination of route and it tells you what ports are close enough to the direct route to add as waypoints, which have a trade good needing transport. maybe other nations could ask you to transport and pay you...

I think that would be a viable option - establishing the trade route in diplo screen would make sense here, as you're moving actual cargo.

Once the the route is established, I think it would make sense to be able to edit as needed - so, adding it additional waypoints at some point down the road would make sense.
 
The problem with the current Trade system is that it isn't a Trade System, it is TWO Trade Systems. One requires Caravans and Cargo Ships and only carries generic Gold-producing cargo, the other magically covers the world no matter how big, is established diplomatically and carries only strategic or luxury goods.

Both systems have serious logical flaws and having both in the same game makes sense only if you realize that the entire 'trade route' system with the cargo ships and caravans was added wholesale onto the existing system with no attempt to merge the two.

So first, let's agree that the game needs ONE Trade System only.

Second, let's try to give the gamer the same options in the trade system that historical civs had in trading.

That means, first of all, that there are limits on what can be traded, which limits will change as technology changes. The most obvious limit is that from the start of the game (4000 BC) any trade route moving over land is limited to what can be carried on a pack animal or bearer. Wheeled vehicles aren't going where there are no roads, at least not for long and not with any amount of cargo. That means that any overland trade until railroads will be small quantities.

Now, this is not as much of a limitation as you might think. It doesn't take a lot of copper (bronze) or iron to equip a soldier/warrior all the way up to the renaissance 'era', and horses move themselves: 'Strategic' goods can still be moved. By definition, Luxury Goods do not require huge amounts to be valuable: they can also be moved and traded.
BUT
When you get into the Industrial Age, the quantities increase dramatically. It takes 1000s of tons of iron to build a railroad, or an ironclad. A city the size of 19th century London, Paris or New York is not going to be made much happier or content with a few hundred pounds of Incense or Wine (in fact, they may not give a Rat's Patootie for Incense at all, but that's another problem in the game)
AND
To make a difference, Food always has to be traded in really Mass Quantities: bread or wheat for Rome in Classical Times came in on 1500 ton cargo ships - a couple hundred pounds on the back of a camel would make no difference to the city at all.

So the real distinction in Trade is not between Strategic or Luxury Goods or between diplomatic or caravan-started trade routes, it is between Mass Quantities of goods required in the later stages of the game for everything and food all the time, and the 'piece' quantities required for most goods earlier in the game. The former can only be moved by Water or Railroad/modern Highway. The later can be moved by just about anything, including human porters (no draft animals or roads required)

Now, about setting up the trade routes.

It makes no sense to 'start' a trade route by Building a Caravan. The caravans will build themselves, from your merchants, traders, entrepreneurs and such once you (the ruler) give them a reason to. That reason is a market in another city where they want goods that you have, and a way to get there without getting waylaid by barbarians, bandits, or the other cities' army.
SO Trade routes are established diplomatically. All of them.

The mechanism for getting trade routes long enough to reach all the markets should have some limitations, but not the artificial ones in the game now. If I have enough merchants, traders, etc in my kingdom, the number of such is the only limitation on the number of places I can go to trade. The distance over which I can trade depends on establishing 'depots' or transfer points - places where caravans can rest as part of their journey, or cargo can be transferred from boat to camel or river boat to sea-going vessel. The number of those Depots will govern the amount and distance of my trade routes.

Here's my idea for a mechanism.
Every Market, Seaport, Harbor or Caravansary (to use the buildings in the game now) has a slot for a Merchant or Trader. Later Technologies will increase these slots, and later buildings will add more (Airport, Container Terminal, possibly Stock Market).
Every Trader allows you to establish a Depot. When you establish diplomatic talks with another civ, you offer Goods, which can be both specific (gold, iron, wine, etc) or General (food, Manufactured Goods). You agree on what you want to trade and how much Gold or goods will change hands to make it happen. Then you agree on who provides the Depots and how many - because both nations should have a vested interest in making the Trade Route happen, and each Depot will add to the amount of profit (or percentage of the total value of the trade route) you take out of it.

Example:
You and Slobbovia decide to Trade. You have Silver and Manufactured Goods, which since your cities are mostly in grassland and forest means woodwork, pottery, and possibly exotic art, since Slobbovia is all desert this is worth something. They have Spices and more Manufactured Goods. Since the route will include some overland segment, you cannot trade Food, Timber, or Building Stone - it's too heavy and bulky to move with your current technology.
From your nearest city to Slobbovia you trace a route across country 7 tiles to the coast, which is less than 10 tiles away, so it only requires 1 depot, on the coast where the goods will be moved onto a ship. 15 tiles away is a City State, where the second depot will go (default mode for City States will be to welcome Trade and depots, unless they are actively at war with one of the trading civs). Another 18 tiles beyond the city state is a Slobbovian coastal city. The trading partner usually provides the depot in his own city, but you might offer generously to provide it from your own merchants - which also increases your profit and gives you potential spies in his city!
So, you have a trade route 40 tiles long, requiring 4 depots including the ones in your city and Slobbovia's, which initially will be carrying Silver, Spices, and general Goods back and forth between you. Graphically, a caravan or cargo ship will move along the route, each graphic representing one turn's worth of profit from the route. If barbarians or other raiders 'take' a caravan, they DO NOT DESTROY the Trade Route: they remove one-turn worth of income from it, and the advantages you got from any goods (strategic or luxury value) for one turn. Once a trade route is up and functioning, you can negotiate to carry other goods along the same route.

Great Merchants have a new ability: they can single-handedly establish a trade route of any length, with any number of depots - very handy if you want an early route stretching across a Pangea continent.

Note that with this system, the limitation on length and amount of trade routes is simply the amount of effort your civ puts into the infrastructure: build lots of markets and caravansaries and harbors, establish lots of depots, rake in the Golds (and probably diplomatic clout with your trading partners).

Note also that any depot away from a city is vulnerable to Barbarians and raiders, and if they destroy it, it has to be reestablished (using up another Merchant) or the trade route starts to fade away (the graphical caravans stop generating, and as the ones on the route already reach the ends all profit and goods from the route cease). That means depots should probably be garrisoned. Such garrisons and depots if not in a city already, will start to generate settlement, and may eventually become a city or city state. It also means that where possible, putting depots for several trade routes on the same tile makes sense: easier to garrison, and a city will grow up around the depots that much faster.
 
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