Trading posts should be available sooner

[gamemaster3000]

I'm consistently having serious gold problems in my games, which are almost crippling if the RNG doesn't put a few city states next to me. The combination of so few coin producing tiles + trading posts coming so late is very problematic.

I also see no reason why the one coin from trading posts couldn't come much earlier. It's almost certainly worse than working hammer tiles or big +food tiles.

Edit: Selling my empire for gold per turn to the AI is basically how I've coped with this, which is what most people suggested. It's just odd that two games in a row I've played with no one remotely close to me despite there being 10 computer players. In one game I had 0 city states within 40+ tiles of me, the other I had one. And actually the gold/turn from the AI is a bigger problem on lower difficulties, but monuments, shrines, granaries, etc. all still cost one.

We are talking Brave New World.

The thing is that coins are almost exclusively on strategic resource tiles, which means you're particularly screwed if you don't have many of them. (And did they remove coins from rivers in Brave New World, or has it been that way in Civ 5 the whole time?)

So in the second of these recent games I had a bunch of decent city locations right next to the capital, so I chose to go liberty for the free settler. However I was so constrained by gold that I wound up going for the tradition +1 gold -1 unhappy per 2 citizens just because both were such issues. (Being Poland helped.) But if gold is so important that Tradition > Liberty for rapid expansion, that's an issue. In fact, that tradition policy is the only way to get gold out of your own tiles in the early game. (And religions, but then you're paying for the shrines.)

And to the posters who said trading posts suck....you're right. I don't Want to build them, either. But there are city sites near me that are obviously good spots but I can't even pay for the shrines/granaries let alone my barbarian-clearing army.

And it's actually because of the fact that they suck that they should be available earlier. It wouldn't be unbalanced, but would solve the problem that if you have no one to trade with, you'd at least have a way to limp to currency.

To prove my point, if trading posts came with trapping how would you abuse that?

 

[Ryika]

Selling Luxuries alone should really give you enough Gold to have a good early game. It's a bit harder on lower difficulties because the AI just doesn't have that much either, but even that should still be manageable - on deity you can easily have +30-40gpt on turn 60 with a somewhat average start.

And considering that food focus is 10 times more important early on than getting additional gold, trading posts would probably not be that helpful.

Don't really see any benefit from such a change.

 

[S.O.T MAHak]

I almost never builds trading posts except on jungle and flat desert. And i don't seem to have any major fiscal trouble.

We're talking BNW here, right?

You do use foreign trading routes?
Also sell you spare lux. and stra. resources for extra cash. I found horses to be a good source of income, you get them at the start of the ancient age and won't really need them until "horseback riding" in the classical age, which is for my preferences a rather late tech in that age. So you can basically sell them all.

 

[peterw1987]

Never really build trading post, unless on jungle tiles. Gold from luxuries and trade route is more than enough to keep +gpt, unless you are planning to rush buy all your building and unit.

 

[BrokTheFanatic]

They do seem to come late but Caravans/cargo ships seems to provide more than enough until then, build the carnavasary if you need a little more gold. But if still a problem, I guess beeline markets.

And don't overbuild roads, they add up fast. Early on only connect cities to the capital with minimal roads. Like connecting a small city that is far off from the next nearest city will cost a couple gold in roads until it gets larger. Also, get rid of early scouts, they aren't needed once you have explored enough and won't have the ability to cross the ocean.

 

[zukenft]

try taking tradition. the gold per pop in capital is very powerful. also try to settle spots with multiple luxes, each will give you 2 gpt if worked.

 

[Asklepios]

I agree trading posts should come earlier, but not for the reasons you suggest.

Managing early gold can be hard if you have a sizeable military and a lot of costs, but thats part of the strategy of the game. Using the approaches mentioned above its easy to stay in the black on income, or at least to stay a small enough distance into the red that you can make it up later.

The reason I'd like to see Trading Posts earlier is that I think it would improve the game, adding more decisions as to worker priorities in the early game. More choices = more interesting game. I'd like to see it be an option to try to keep your income going through early t-posting, and for this to be analysed in its pros and cons (I suspect it'd be suboptimal compared to working mines or farms in the early game in most circumstances).

Balancing opportunity costs is what makes Civ strategy fun, and I think the game could only be improved by forcing more early choices.

 

[Chum]

Can't remember the last time I worked a trading post over a specialist slot. Or a 4 food tile. Or a 3 food tile. Or a 4 production tile.

So, yeah. Don't really need them earlier. If you're having trouble with gold, there's something wrong with what you're doing, and trading posts are unlikely to solve that problem without creating others.

 

[BrokTheFanatic]

I agree trading posts should come earlier, but not for the reasons you suggest.

Managing early gold can be hard if you have a sizeable military and a lot of costs, but thats part of the strategy of the game. Using the approaches mentioned above its easy to stay in the black on income, or at least to stay a small enough distance into the red that you can make it up later.

The reason I'd like to see Trading Posts earlier is that I think it would improve the game, adding more decisions as to worker priorities in the early game. More choices = more interesting game.

Yep, I agree

 

[danaphanous]

I don't build trading posts either, except on jungle and tundra. It's just not worth the 1 gold to sacrifice 1-2 food or 2 production early-game. Sell your luxuries that you aren't needing in happiness and some of your unused resources and you should be fine like Ryika said. This is my first major source of gold. By the time that wears off you'll have 2-3 trade routes to CS's or other civs that should be buoying your economy--if you go for a religion and pick up tithes that should start making you some significant early-game gold as well.

 

[chazzycat]

build farms instead. connect your cities. keep growing. you get way more gold from city connections than trading posts, with the ancillary benefit of more everything.

 

[joncnunn]

I think Trading Posts are just fine where they are. But there's a few basic buildings in ancient era that shouldn't require 1 gold upkeep that do that would fix the gold problems when all known AIs are currently running a deficit.

Tradition really helps though; Monarchy increases gold from the capital a lot and in addition, the free buildings from tradition cost no maintenance.

 

[gamemaster3000]

Bump for edits to OP.

 

[Biz_]

The reason I'd like to see Trading Posts earlier is that I think it would improve the game, adding more decisions as to worker priorities in the early game. More choices = more interesting game. I'd like to see it be an option to try to keep your income going through early t-posting, and for this to be analysed in its pros and cons (I suspect it'd be suboptimal compared to working mines or farms in the early game in most circumstances).

Balancing opportunity costs is what makes Civ strategy fun, and I think the game could only be improved by forcing more early choices.

original civ 5 was like that. it had trading posts after trapping

the history of development since 2010 ultimately resulted in fewer and fewer choices and strategies for the player

 

[player1 fanatic]

original civ 5 was like that. it had trading posts after trapping

They also gave +2 gold, which was at that time overpowered.

 

[Marshall Thomas]

But there's a few basic buildings in ancient era that shouldn't require 1 gold upkeep that do that would fix the gold problems when all known AIs are currently running a deficit.

I've never understood how the AI manages to run such deficits. In my current campaign, many of the AI have zero gold in their treasury and over negative 20 gold-per-turn. It's frustrating for selling extra resources and it just doesn't make any sense.

edit: I'm using two mods: Buffed AI and Smart AI. Could this be why the AI is running large deficits without any gold in their treasuries to pay for them? thanks in advance.

 

[Talamare]

I've never understood how the AI manages to run such deficits. In my current campaign, many of the AI have zero gold in their treasury and over negative 20 gold-per-turn. It's frustrating for selling extra resources and it just doesn't make any sense.

There was a trick that if an AI gave you open borders, you would just make a ton of roads in their area (or if you planted the roads outside their borders and waited for them to grow into it), and the AI would run into massive deficits and be completely ruined all game. To fix this, AI no longer uses gold for anything really...

 

[Marshall Thomas]

There was a trick that if an AI gave you open borders, you would just make a ton of roads in their area (or if you planted the roads outside their borders and waited for them to grow into it), and the AI would run into massive deficits and be completely ruined all game. To fix this, AI no longer uses gold for anything really...

So raiding the AI's international trade routes wouldn't effect it? That's a shame. No piracy or submarine convoy raiding tactics.

 

[Callonia]

Well in case you didn't know, your gold production is linked to your capital size and your connected cities.

The bigger your capital is the more gold the connected cities produce. I think that's how it works for inner trade routes with yourself.

By having good population you should be able to maintain a decent military count.

And then, trade routes if you can reach the capitals. Send them there.

I have a fetish for making all my trade routes originate from my capital only because it makes me the most gold by having my capital trade with a civ's capital. If i cannot or hate a civ, I trade with city states next, preferably mercantiles.

After that, if I can trade with a civ capital but my capital is too distant then I put it in the biggest city of mine that's farthest away from the civ's capital but in range of trade routes.

Hunt for luxuries that produce you the most gold. Calendar ones i think and Gold/silver mines plus gems help as well. Gems is standalone but you can create a mint when you have access to gold/silver.

And finally you don't really need to build every single infrastructure in every city until you reach certain level in tech advancements. The minimum would be the markets.

Also, Trade Posts only supplement your income unless you have lots of them and have social policies that boost the power of trade posts which makes them even more powerful during golden ages.

 

[orasis]

You're not budgeting properly. I rarely if ever build trading posts... I think you're trying to expand too fast and that's not always a good move.