Utrasonic quest fence: +1 repel range choice sucks

[LORD ORION]

Has anyone ever used this on purpose regularly?

I can see the intent

One is supposed to be for an Internal strategy (+1 repel range)
-Work all tiles in range safely from aliens
-Trade internally with a cluster of cities at 6 range for +food/Industry
-Maybe allows you to put a city at 3 tiles to a nest to clear it without provoking it

The other is for an external strategy (Convoys immune to aliens)
-Trade at any distance with anyone, especially over water
-Not all Workable tiles are not safe from aliens/worms (range 3 tiles not safe)

Some problems
1) Naval aliens are VERY strong, you won't be doing any early maritime trading without the convoy repel
2) You only need to build 1 ultrasonic fence to trigger the quest to protect convoys, but any city that wants the 3 repel range needs one
3) Trade is a big part of this game, and without the convoy repel, you are likely going to lose convoy units to wandering siege worms often

I don't think I am missing here in thinking that one choice is BAD, ALWAYS. Did I overlook an essential use for the 3 repel range choice in some situation?

Anyone have any input on what else the repel range choice could have to be useful?
eg: Range 5 (instead of 3) to allow internal trade / eliminate alien nuisance without violence

 

[Ryika]

It's definitely the worse choice, but I'd say it's not always bad. If you really go full-internal with tight city placement it can completely lock out aliens, giving you the additional +1 range basically for free because your trade routes will always be save - trade-off is of course that you may have problems reaching that Science-Station that just popped up right behind a wilderness.

Also, when Aliens become friendly they don't eat Convoys anyway, so if you manage to get a nest into your borders that's also a great choice.

I don't think the +1 range is too weak though, I'd rather say the immunity is way too strong. If you ask me it should be removed completely (or changed so that it needs an additional building and only makes the units of cities that have that building immune) - yes, it would make it "harder" and "more annoying" to trade externally, but is that really a bad thing? I don't think so. If it was actually worth doing then defending trade routes would become more important (although they should then probably make it so that siege worms don't eat them because they can just pop up randomly) - AND actually having an alien nest in your borders would become more valuable.

 

[Barathor]

Those are pretty much the same problems I have with the quest choices for the fence.

I don't think increasing the range for the lesser quest option would really do it.

Some may say that making the trade units immunity local instead of global may fix it, but again, I don't think it would. Plus, it would lead to awkward gameplay where players may think their trade unit still has immunity when they switch it to another starting city. Or, you forget which cities have the immunity and have to go into each one to check for the fence, since there's no other visual indicator (or is there, on the city graphics itself? I forget).

Anyway, I say, just remove the immunity all together, it's too cheesy. It's a wild, alien planet -- keep it that way. There should be a little risk if you want to send unguarded trade units far out into it. Perhaps the % chance for neutral-attitude aliens to attack trade units can be slightly lessened within the code, so it isn't too frequent.

As for the quest, just introduce a different quest reward. Maybe something that rewards a small boost to city strength and/or health, like many of the other defensive buildings? I suppose the text would have to be altered to describe the fence as being augmented with something to affect humans a well.

 

[GeoModder]

If the immunity/extended range option was to be replaced, I'd rather have the quest give the choice of either increase yields of internal or external trade routes.

 

[wayneb64]

Yes the trade route immunity is OP, but really what is the alternative? Trying to guard all your trade routes is nearly impossible and would make your military expense far bigger than any gains by the routes itself. One game I had the great misfortune of my city being in the middle of a work super highway and I chose to extend my fence. I regretted it all game long having to replace trade routes which are already a pain to maintain.

 

[Ryika]

If the immunity/extended range option was to be replaced, I'd rather have the quest give the choice of either increase yields of internal or external trade routes.

I'd say those are rather quest options for the depot (and much more interesting options I might add), as the Fence itself doesn't really have anything to do with the Trade Units. ^^ I'd rather say give them something like "We could increase their efficiency or use them as electricity networks!" -> 1+ Range + No Maintenance vs. +5% Energy per City

 

[RonMar]

Actually, the fence's ability to be miniaturize to be put on a moveable unit makes it theoretically possible to be put with any type of unit. The game quest, however, limits its use toTrade Units.

 

[docbud]

Yes the trade route immunity is OP, but really what is the alternative? Trying to guard all your trade routes is nearly impossible and would make your military expense far bigger than any gains by the routes itself. One game I had the great misfortune of my city being in the middle of a work super highway and I chose to extend my fence. I regretted it all game long having to replace trade routes which are already a pain to maintain.

I agree. Without the immunity, one could end up having to build nothing but caravans to replace the destroyed ones.

 

[Ryika]

Well, I'm all for reducing the number of trade routes to 1 and extending their duration anyway. I'd even say make destroyed trade routes automatically respawn after X turns and make them block the trade route slot until they have respawned -> the annoying micromanaging would become smaller, but actually defending them would become so much more important.

 

[tedeviatings]

So am I the only one that consistently doesn't build ultrasonic fences at all on land maps?
I mean, yea immunity is way stronger than +1 repel range. Also immunity still feels very unnecessary on land maps in general and since this is what I usually play I'm not quite prepared to call them OP. I mean, it's not that I'd refuse to build the fence should I ever need it... Just not a lot of aliens between my cities I guess.

 

[Kutuzov]

So am I the only one that consistently doesn't build ultrasonic fences at all on land maps?
I mean, yea immunity is way stronger than +1 repel range. Also immunity still feels very unnecessary on land maps in general and since this is what I usually play I'm not quite prepared to call them OP. I mean, it's not that I'd refuse to build the fence should I ever need it... Just not a lot of aliens between my cities I guess.

I build them in my first two or three cities as I don't really have anything to counter a sandworm until later in the game. However, I stop building them in new cities after that as my cities can usually handle pretty much anything mid-game, even worms. The Rocket battery improvement is a better build option then.

I've experimented with both options, +3 range for cities and +2 range and trade route immunity. While it's situational, I find the trade route immunity is the better choice as sea trade routes fall foul of sea dragons and titans even late game.

But +3 is useful too as the extra range helps to protect the cities, allows workers to work tiles further out without having to worry about aliens and clears out nearby alien nests for free so I have to think and make a choice each time I play. It's not a given that I'll pick the trade option. It is often useful to have that extra range to work resource tiles further out from my city early game.

 

[DemonMaster]

At least the fence quest should only protect trade units originated in a city with a fence.

 

[Gort]

Yeah, the "hidden" upside to the trade option is that you don't actually have to have ANY ultrasonic fences for it to work. So you can build one, wait for the quest to pop up, then sell it.

Most of the building quests generally have a no-brainer option, they're pretty badly balanced.

 

[tedeviatings]

I build them in my first two or three cities as I don't really have anything to counter a sandworm until later in the game.

You ever tried just not doing it for a couple of games and see how it goes? Cause I used to get the building as well - until I stopped doing it for a change and realized I didn't feel a difference.

allows workers to work tiles further out without having to worry about aliens

Since aliens don't attack your workers inside your borders that's usually not an issue for me. If you want to build roads on the outside this might be annoying but then you're probably more than 2 or 3 tiles away anyways. Also you generally want roads between your cities and since cities kill aliens, aliens are usually not where your cities are.

 

[LORD ORION]

Thought about alot of the discussion the last few days.

I guess ideally for the Reverse Polarity Choice, without suggesting radical design changes
1) The city needs a fence to protect its local trade units
2) The local 2 hex alien protection is removed (reverse polarity fence on trade units is not compatible with a local grid)

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The +1 range option is cleraly inferiour to immune trade routes most of the time, but I had situations where I picked it. Mostly when I had a few cities with 4+ hexes between each other and no other external trade partner.

Overall I think that the immunity should be part of a midgame tech instead of a building quest and the current option should be replaced with something like free maintenance instead.

 

[Gorbles]

That's a good set of suggestions.

And agreed, I've taken the +1 range on occasion but only when no trade partners are available (generally 1 v 1 games where Stations end up getting stomped).