[V2.4]Hero and Promotion related feedback and suggestions

[stmartin]

As the title says, we need some feedback and suggestion about heroes and promotions, because some of the heroes added in v2.4 needs some more work.

If you have any feedback about the following aspects, do tell me!

• Which hero is overpowered/underpowerd?
• Which hero need/don't need certain promotion because of historical accuracy?
• Which Promotion is overpowered/underpowered?
• What do you think of the random hero's random promotion choice and masked potential unit combat level?
• Are there too many random heroes in the game?
• Do you have any idea about a new awesome promotion?
• Is there any specific thing you want AI heroes and legions to do/not to do?

Actual playing experience is what we developers lack, so player feedback and extremely vital to us, thank!

 

[Kenjister]

Here it goes!

Overpowered:
None really, the experience required for each promotion keeps heroes from dominating too early in the game, while in the late game, defences are much harder to crack by default.

Underpowered:
Liu Bei - He should at least be able to command more troops or get a Vigorous promotion.
Ma Dai - To me he always seemed a fairly able commander, not spectacular, but also never performed badly. As such, perhaps he can start with a C in Cavalry maybe even with Attack I or Defence I too. Right now, he starts off really badly, plus it's seems odd that a member of the Ma family would have a D in Cav... just odd. Or maybe that's because I've always been partial to the guy.

Odd Promotions:
I can't think of any right now
I may run into some later though...

As for Random Heroes:
So far, so good. They're not very strong, but they're also usually quite useful. Would be nice if they at least started with Vigorous though.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Random heroes are often useless because they cannot be attached to existing units. E.g. if you don't have ships, cavalry or siege machines and your hero doesn't have infantry capability, you can't use him until you get those units. Can the heroes be created to suit your existing tech level (i.e. no point getting a siege general if you don't even have ancient dictionary)?

 

[stmartin]

Liu Bei, Ma Dai are underpowered? um, that's because I made those new heroes instead of xxhe. He's busy for a few days and we need to release this, so I did these heroes. Looks like he's better with the job.

As to random hero can't lead any troop when born, that's a good point, and easy to solve, I'll add a check when they are born, if player's current unit composition and the hero's starting combat level didn't match, the code would take care of it.

 

[Kenjister]

hey, they aren't bad, and I really like the new focus some heroes have on support... just need to be buffed a little bit! Loving the new promotions and Nine transformation too!

On the other hand, maybe Lu Bu should be given Warrior Spirit. Right now he's powerful, but relatively harmless... You just throw enough legions at him, someone eventually gets a lucky hit, and a lot of xp. I want to feel afraid when my core troop has to attack his core troop, espcially in the early game, where my legions are low quality and expendable. I really love that promotion by the way, really makes those heroes risky to take on with Assault, just in case you lose.

 

[stmartin]

Yeah, Lu Bu would have got that Warrior Soul (or warrior spirit, if that's more proper in English) if I had some more time polishing this release.

 

[fireclaw722]

I think it would be intresting to make it if some of the Heroes change factions or get paid off to stay with the same faction. It would happen too much but slightly enough to bother more powerful factions. Another thing is that when the Hero is paid of some(between 40-70/80%) of the money is returned slowly. I also think that if the faction refuses to bribe or pay the Hero the Hero could join a faction they are warring with.

I know that this was somewhat introduced in the Revolution mod by making the cities bieng paid off to quit rebelling but(unless it's changed since I looked last) they couldn't get the money to circulate back to the govrenment.

I think this is a great mod and has many intresting ideas and great concepts.

 

[Kenjister]

Warrior soul or warrior spirit both work fine... and don't worry about the quality, you can touch things up in patches. It's good that you released the mod when you did, I've seen many other projects stall and lose support because they just couldn't bring themselves to release the new version if there was still the slightest problem with it.

As for promotions go, could you perhaps give out Unstoppable as a starting promotion to some heroes? It's still seems rather weak to spend xp on, but has a very cool concept.

EDIT: Just a little story to share how awesome random heroes can be. I just captured one as Ma Teng who started with Snipe, Iron Wall, and Formation Breaker. The AI had previously promoted him so he had D in Seige and Navy but no command in anything else. I was dissapointed at first, but soon I realized that this guy was pure amazingness. Using seige units produced in Chang An, he could effectively attack a well fortified cities with 99% odds by hitting at the seige parked inside. Formation Breaker would lower the defence much faster than 5 catapults would, and he'd also inflict collaterall damage! Though not as powerful as Strong Bow, this guy is the only reason I can take Han Zhong right now.

 

[stmartin]

I think it would be intresting to make it if some of the Heroes change factions or get paid off to stay with the same faction. It would happen too much but slightly enough to bother more powerful factions. Another thing is that when the Hero is paid of some(between 40-70/80%) of the money is returned slowly. I also think that if the faction refuses to bribe or pay the Hero the Hero could join a faction they are warring with.

I know that this was somewhat introduced in the Revolution mod by making the cities bieng paid off to quit rebelling but(unless it's changed since I looked last) they couldn't get the money to circulate back to the govrenment.

I think this is a great mod and has many intresting ideas and great concepts.

Glad you like it!

As for the hero bribe/allegiance idea, it's cool. I mean really cool. That happens to be my plan too. However, there are some complications. First it's hard, really hard to make a good system that works and AI understands. But that's not important. Legion system is much harder. The real problem is the next step of the mod is to focus on factions. To make each factions actually playable but play testing each faction. So this idea has to wait, for a long time.

Warrior soul or warrior spirit both work fine... and don't worry about the quality, you can touch things up in patches. It's good that you released the mod when you did, I've seen many other projects stall and lose support because they just couldn't bring themselves to release the new version if there was still the slightest problem with it.

As for promotions go, could you perhaps give out Unstoppable as a starting promotion to some heroes? It's still seems rather weak to spend xp on, but has a very cool concept.

EDIT: Just a little story to share how awesome random heroes can be. I just captured one as Ma Teng who started with Snipe, Iron Wall, and Formation Breaker. The AI had previously promoted him so he had D in Seige and Navy but no command in anything else. I was dissapointed at first, but soon I realized that this guy was pure amazingness. Using seige units produced in Chang An, he could effectively attack a well fortified cities with 99% odds by hitting at the seige parked inside. Formation Breaker would lower the defence much faster than 5 catapults would, and he'd also inflict collaterall damage! Though not as powerful as Strong Bow, this guy is the only reason I can take Han Zhong right now.

Yeah, what that mantra says: release early, release often.

Unstoppable can go as free starting promotion, I agree. Put it in the patch then.

Glad to hear about the story, looks like the randomness in random hero did produce some wonderful surprise.

 

[fireclaw722]

Is there a Scenario that utilizes the Sun Jian LH and the Zhang Jiao LH. If there isn't, I don't see a sense in having them unless someone wanted to play a "normal" game with the mod. Also during a couple 194, 196, 200AD scenario that has Zhang Jiao hero hireable, even though he was dead at the time. Is that supposed to be there or is it a bug.

 

[stmartin]

Currently no scenario has Sun Jian or Zhang Jiao, future scenario will definitely has.

However, your screenshot is shocking... How could some faction resurrect Zhang Jiao and recruit him??

 

[AnotherPacifist]

It's due to Zhuge Liang's sorcery.
Very nice empire there with Yang Feng BTW, what difficulty are you playing?

 

[Kenjister]

Yeah, that's pretty good for Yang Feng. Did you manage to get a good random hero yet? Usually my games with him are determined by the first heroes ability to back up Xu Huang

EDIT: Also, I realized that Fighting Withdrawal can be rather suicidal at times. Perhaps it can be changed to inflicting 1 combat round of damage or simply a flat amount. Either that or have it only occur when there's above 80% like the morale promotion.

 

[fireclaw722]

It's due to Zhuge Liang's sorcery.
Very nice empire there with Yang Feng BTW, what difficulty are you playing?

noble

Yeah, that's pretty good for Yang Feng. Did you manage to get a good random hero yet? Usually my games with him are determined by the first heroes ability to back up Xu Huang

I don't think I got a random hero because I hired Zhang Jiao before most of my conquests.

 

[Kenjister]

Ok, I went and tested out Fighting Withdrawal and Unstoppable. Fighting Withrawal is good, though I didn't see Zhao Yun attacking withdrawing enemies. Of course I could of got unlucky that time (the chance is 80% right?). Both do have the drawback though of forcing suicide attacks every so often. They're great when the enemy get's damaged before they attack, but if the enemy had escaped unhurt, then the second attacker usually gets horrible odds. For Fighting Withdrawal, it can force your 1 hp unit to attack in support.
It would be a great idea to allow those promotions to give 100% withdrawal during the special attacks though!

 

[stmartin]

I don't think I got a random hero because I hired Zhang Jiao before most of my conquests.

Did the 'recruit' text just appear on the deceased Zhang Jiao's hero line in hero advisor?

Ok, I went and tested out Fighting Withdrawal and Unstoppable. Fighting Withrawal is good, though I didn't see Zhao Yun attacking withdrawing enemies. Of course I could of got unlucky that time (the chance is 80% right?). Both do have the drawback though of forcing suicide attacks every so often. They're great when the enemy get's damaged before they attack, but if the enemy had escaped unhurt, then the second attacker usually gets horrible odds. For Fighting Withdrawal, it can force your 1 hp unit to attack in support.
It would be a great idea to allow those promotions to give 100% withdrawal during the special attacks though!

Fighting withdrawal can attack withdrawing enemy, 80% chance. 100% withdrawal chance can be too much...it eliminate any risk involved. 80% attack odds to initiate an attack might be good enough.

 

[Kenjister]

yeah, I realized that after I typed it
but the attack odds are perfect! It's already quite powerful since it basically allows you to attack that one unit with your legion at once... I really like it! (as long as it isn't suicidal)

 

[stmartin]

OK then, I'll add the attack odds protection in patch C.

 

[fireclaw722]

No it didn't show he was deseased, It said he was live and hirable.

 

[Agent327]

Yesterday I tried the new 194 AD and the 196 AD 81x81 maps on Multiplayer and the number of OOS seems to have increased with the latest Hero system revision. On the 194 AD we got about 1 OOS per turn, so we tried the 196 AD instead. While not getting the same amount of OOS, the number was dedinitely up as compared to the 2.3 version (which was virtually OOS-free).

EDIT: We played using IP connection.