Venice+Archipelago=way too easy?

[mandriletti]

Or, at least, that's my conclusion arising from the fact that I am not a good player at all, it was my first game ever on Emperor and it was probably the easiest victory in my sad career as (bad) Civ player.

The key here is that if you're lucky enough to have an isolated island start without annoying neighbors and, because you have double trade routes, you can easily afford pumping food from all city states to the capital without actually renouncing to gain money from trade. Therefore, you can go supertall (size 42 by the end of the game) and it was just a matter of Tradition+Exploration+Rationalism+Freedom=science victory by a huge margin. When I launched my spaceship, Pachacuti, my follower in science was just entering atomic. This fact also leads to wonder myself if the AI would actually able to win the game if the human does nothing: now that science is more expensive and provided that civs seemingly go culture, I really doubt that any of them would be able to launch a spaceship within 500 turns or attain any other kinf of victory.

Ok, maybe I was just plain lucky, but me winning so easily (in G&K, King was challenging enough) made me believe that there is something very wrong and unbalanced in the game right now...

 

[Veneke]

BNW as a whole is easier than G&K and Vanilla. However, I don't think that water maps are any easier than land ones anymore. They certainly were in G&K and Vanilla but with the changes in BNW it's made the AI either unable or unwilling (possibly both) to declare war and conquer; which is what it needs to do to compete with a human player. Now, however, even if it manages to obtain a critical mass it seems to lack the decisiveness to engage. It does seem slightly more comfortable taking on other AIs though, which makes me wonder if they've coded the AI to factor in a greater advantage when deciding whether to declare war or not.

As for it winning - the AI has always been rather terrible at winning though it can do fairly well at culture and, with the right Civs in the right position, can do reasonably well at Domination. Science and diplomacy though it does not seem to manage quite as well. That said, they've pushed science well back so perhaps if the game wasn't already decided by one of the other conditions they might manage that reasonably well. Although, definitely not on the slower speeds, where even human players can struggle to complete everything before 2050.

 

[Wuddel]

I think water maps are always easier. I am not such a good player but I win 100% on Immortal on water maps. Water stops the city spam AIs effectively, it stops the early warmongers. Human players can easily compete with just a few units, which comes from the fact that the range promotion is just the 3rd promotion on naval units, but the 4th on siege units.

 

[Veneke]

... Human players can easily compete with just a few units, which comes from the fact that the range promotion is just the 3rd promotion on naval units, but the 4th on siege units.

In almost any situation if it comes to war with the AI you're almost certainly going to win. Land or sea doesn't really factor and while range is a huge boost it doesn't change anything. The AIs ability to conduct warfare at sea is awful to the point where extra range is just overkill and it's ability to wage war on land is mediocre until artillery at which point it gets worse. I've found that it actually handles nuclear weapons pretty well in BNW but, by that stage, if a human player has decided to go for a war-heavy game, it's usually over by then.

It's been getting better with each patch and expansion, certainly, but it's still frustratingly average.


Also, city spam by the AI pre-Industrial has all but stopped as has early warmongering, regardless of map type.

 

[Wuddel]

Also, city spam by the AI pre-Industrial has all but stopped as has early warmongering, regardless of map type.

I do not have this impression. Essentially my biggest problem is early aggression in Classical (swords catapults) when I am building up still. And Alex and Shaka are warmongery as ever. The problem is much less pronounced if you play on larger maps, or larger landmasses, so you are more spread out.

 

[Veneke]

That's quite odd, my experience has been completely different; even on a small pangaea starting less than ten tiles from Denmark and a total military force of 2-3 archers and a warrior until Musketeers.

 

[PhilBowles]

I'm actually inclined to agree, as someone used to playing on archipelago maps and used to playing BNW on Emperor, although it may be that I'm unused to OCC strategies generally. I'm on the edge of the industrial era in 1200 AD, I've reached rank 1 in most demographics without particularly trying, and I've been score leader for much of the game. My gold is so high I've only just started needing to use Venice's extra trade routes.

Part of this may be the difficulty - I sat back and Wonderspammed through the early game, and Emperor is the highest difficulty where you can feasibly do that - but it seems easier even than my experiences playing Indonesia, and certainly than Morocco or Assyria.

 

[Wuddel]

That's quite odd, my experience has been completely different; even on a small pangaea starting less than ten tiles from Denmark and a total military force of 2-3 archers and a warrior until Musketeers.

I think flavours are readjusted. Denmark also dislikes warmongers now (odd). Washington, Alex, Shaka (and probably more) are still quite a threat. I always play standard map size, but often with the "Small Continents" or "Fractal" map scripts.

 

[Disgustipated]

I'm actually trying a cultural victory with Venice and Archipelago. I know they aren't the best suited for cultural, but I figure I'm on an easy enough difficulty I can accomplish this.

I have yet to do a cultural victory. Just exactly how do I do it? I'm at 43% with some civs, less with others. I'm not sure if I can pull this off. With only one city, I can't build buildings fast enough it seems, and I have some great artists waiting for a spot to open for them.

 

[Veneke]

Definitely read this Disgustipated: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501996 I used that guide for my France OOC Cultural win and, I have to admit, it's quite powerful. If the game's already started and you lack the faith and/or have started on Musicians already then you'll probably have to adjust it somewhat.

There were four core things I found that I had to get in my playthrough - Freedom's flat +34% boost, open borders with everybody (very important for musicians), the Internet (obviously) and, although I didn't realize this at the time, Computers. In my game the cultural and military leader built the Great Firewall before I managed to eclipse them in culture or even research the Internet. I still won but it was a messy finish involving concert tours in a Civ I already had sufficient influence to make a stab at some influence with the 20% boost a GM gives to influence on all other Civs.

 

[vanzlmalc]

My first deity win in BNW was Venice+archipelago and i too found it somewhat easy. Lots of gold and science from sea trade routes is just so strong.

A trick i used is I delayed optics so the first merchant puppeted a CS with a market and I got to work on my next merchant way before currency.

 

[GrantBud]

So easy... it takes the Challenge out of one city challenge.

Just don't fight wars at first, then by the time you've got 10-12 trade routes up, you'll be racking in like 500-600 GPT, which is easy for a win.

 

[GrantBud]

Disgustipated, what are you doing *building* buildings with Venice? You've got all that gold for a reason