Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

[thegreekweegee]

I'd say Vokarya's option is better, to be honest. King Richard's Crusade is supposed to represent a huge military effort, not a helper for productivity.

 

[<Nexus>]

I'd say Vokarya's option is better, to be honest. King Richard's Crusade is supposed to represent a huge military effort, not a helper for productivity.

Oh, I forgot to write that I agree all the rest of his idea. I just think that there is a little place for great generals too. But it's no biggie

 

[Vokarya]

I want to keep the overall number of abilities on these Wonders minimized. KRC is not one of the worst, but consolidating two abilities down to one seemed really good to me. I like Wonders to have one strong ability rather than a multitude of small ones, and also trying not to overlap with existing Wonders. With the structure of the code, that's hard to do unless we find something that is not used, create an ability with Python, or create a new XML tag.

For Great General points, we already have Art of War, Terracotta Army, and Great Wall, so I don't think we need any more.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I want to keep the overall number of abilities on these Wonders minimized. KRC is not one of the worst, but consolidating two abilities down to one seemed really good to me. I like Wonders to have one strong ability rather than a multitude of small ones, and also trying not to overlap with existing Wonders. With the structure of the code, that's hard to do unless we find something that is not used, create an ability with Python, or create a new XML tag.

For Great General points, we already have Art of War, Terracotta Army, and Great Wall, so I don't think we need any more.

I totally agree. Your last changes and your new proposals look great to me.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm doing some speculation on what I want to see out of the other religious wonders.

Masada: I think this should be the premier defensive religious wonder, not Alhambra. Global city defense comes from Chichen Itza, Nanite Defuser, Alhambra, and National Courier Service. I don't like the combination of +1 hammer from Priest and +2 free Priest.

Itsukushima Shrine: I've heard people say this is too strong. I want to keep the +1 food from water tiles. It's an ability that doesn't appear on any other wonder until Gardens by the Bay. I'm willing to cut the +1 happiness from Shinto Monastery. You can still get +1 happiness in all cities from Shinto Temple and an additional +1 in a few cities with Shinto Jingu.

Alhambra: I think this should be a cultural wonder rather than a defensive wonder. I wonder if it would be too strong to make it +1 gold/culture/science/espionage from all SR buildings, making it pieces of Spiral Minaret/Sistine Chapel/Sankore.

Temple of Heaven: This is a mishmash of abilities. I really don't like the Great General emergence or the free Priests. I do like the idea of making ToH the Population/possible Food wonder.

 

[thegreekweegee]

I'm doing some speculation on what I want to see out of the other religious wonders.

Masada: I think this should be the premier defensive religious wonder, not Alhambra. Global city defense comes from Chichen Itza, Nanite Defuser, Alhambra, and National Courier Service. I don't like the combination of +1 hammer from Priest and +2 free Priest.

Just shunt away the free priests, and you'll be good, methinks.

Itsukushima Shrine: I've heard people say this is too strong. I want to keep the +1 food from water tiles. It's an ability that doesn't appear on any other wonder until Gardens by the Bay. I'm willing to cut the +1 happiness from Shinto Monastery. You can still get +1 happiness in all cities from Shinto Temple and an additional +1 in a few cities with Shinto Jingu.

With the agricultural trait, all water tiles with fish farm+gardens+itsukushina are boosted by 1, allowing for insanely high population maritime cities. That's the true strength about it. Without the shrine, only ocean tiles aren't boosted, and the Shinto limitation means maritime agricultural civs will beeline for that.

Alhambra: I think this should be a cultural wonder rather than a defensive wonder. I wonder if it would be too strong to make it +1 gold/culture/science/espionage from all SR buildings, making it pieces of Spiral Minaret/Sistine Chapel/Sankore.

Focus solely on espionage. Spiral Minaret gives gold, Sistine Chapel gives culture, and Sankore gives research. Alhambra giving espionage would be a good way to complete the commerce effect.

Temple of Heaven: This is a mishmash of abilities. I really don't like the Great General emergence or the free Priests. I do like the idea of making ToH the Population/possible Food wonder.

Go for it.

 

[Vokarya]

If Alhambra wasn't religion-specific, I could totally see it as the completion of the quartet. As it is, I don't want to do that particular combination of effect and limitation. I'd prefer a non-religion-specific Wonder.

 

[Vokarya]

With the agricultural trait, all water tiles with fish farm+gardens+itsukushina are boosted by 1, allowing for insanely high population maritime cities. That's the true strength about it. Without the shrine, only ocean tiles aren't boosted, and the Shinto limitation means maritime agricultural civs will beeline for that.

Are you referring to ALL of Itsukushima + Fish Farm + Gardens By the Bay? If I'm understanding the Agricultural trait, the +1 food should kick in with two of those. Coast is 3 and Itsukushima is 1, so that falls below the threshold. I could have Itsukushima expire at some point. On the other hand, the Transhuman Era is where I think the normal rules start to break. You deserve something for getting that far.

 

[<Nexus>]

Isn't Alhambra a government center too? IMO that's already a very good effect.
How about Alhambra not giving but receiving 1 from muslim temples? Would be similar to shrine effects but limited to your own civ only. IIRC that tag is cumulative.

 

[thegreekweegee]

Are you referring to ALL of Itsukushima + Fish Farm + Gardens By the Bay? If I'm understanding the Agricultural trait, the +1 food should kick in with two of those. Coast is 3 and Itsukushima is 1, so that falls below the threshold. I could have Itsukushima expire at some point. On the other hand, the Transhuman Era is where I think the normal rules start to break. You deserve something for getting that far.

Yep, it's what I'm referring to. Coast is 3 and ocean is 2, so when you have all 3 of the water food tile buildings, you get 6 on coast and 5 on ocean, triggering the Agricultural trait for both. Personally, to avoid such silliness, I made the Agricultural/Industrial/Financial traits give extra yields to specific improvements instead of the threshold thing, but it's up to you in the end.

If Alhambra wasn't religion-specific, I could totally see it as the completion of the quartet. As it is, I don't want to do that particular combination of effect and limitation. I'd prefer a non-religion-specific Wonder.

In that case, I wouldn't mind the Alhambra having +1 // from all state religion buildings. Sure, it'd be less than if you had all 3 of the Sankore/Minaret/Chapel wonders, but it'd be a good bonus.

 

[Vokarya]

And despite what I said about minimizing bullet points, King Richard's Crusade is actually missing an important one: a <ReligionChanges> point to spread Christianity once it is built. Any religion-specific building (Monastery, Temple, Cathedral, Shrine, Wonder) should have this ability, and the rest of them do, but KRC was missing it for some reason.

 

[Vokarya]

So I've run into the Machu Picchu bug that causes the improvement not to appear. I think the problem is this particular line, line 96 of VokaryaWonders.py:

if pCity.canWork(pPlot) == 1 and pPlot.isPeak():

because I was fiddling with the tiles in-game and I couldn't work a mountain plot, despite having Mountaineering tech. Also, I've figured out how to use CyInterface().addMessage to figure out where a problem is occurring and placing the message after that line resulted in no message, despite a Peak tile right next to the city.

For anyone out there that knows Python, do you think this would work instead?

if pPlot.getOwner() == iPlayer and pPlot.isPeak():

 

[Vokarya]

I've had some ideas about bumping up particular wonders on the tech tree.

• The Oracle: Move from Priesthood to Meditation. One of the things that upsets me a little about this mod is that, because of the bonuses given to the AI in the early eras, some things feel like they are completely out of reach for the human player. This especially applies to the ancient religions and the Oracle. What helps offset the religion problem is the AIs focus so much on the religious techs that I find it is easy to beeline Athletics and get Hellenism. Usually I can get one or two ancient wonders, but not having a chance at the Oracle hurts because it's a one-shot wonder. So this would equalize the chances of getting the Oracle.
• Plato's Academy: Move from Alphabet + Mathematics to Philosophy. This one is just a question of aesthetics (not the tech!). I think Plato is more associated with Philosophy than anything else, so it would be a better fit here. Also, I think Alphabet and Mathematics are too early on the tech tree. The Golden Age of Greece is a bit further down.
• Angkor Wat: Move from Philosophy to Theology. Theology needs some beefing up. It feels like one tech split into three, and Holy War/Papacy took most of its stuff. All Theology has is founding Christianity, Hagia Sophia, and the Seminary. Seminary is hanging on by a thread -- because the Seminary is the civic building for State Church/Free Church, it should have been moved up to Papacy, when State Church becomes available, EXCEPT for the fact that whoever gets Shwedagon Paya can get State Church/Free Church earlier. That's the only reason I've left Seminary on Theology. Giving Angkor Wat to Theology would help it out.

 

[Vokarya]

I've been thinking about what to do with Masada as well. I've settled on global +35% city defense, which is +10% over Chichen Itza, and deleting both the +1 hammer from Priest and the 2 free Priest. What I want to add to fluff this out a little is some of the other extended Castle abilities.

Since Labyrinth of Knossos already has the "must knock down the walls to attack" ability, I was thinking of giving Masada Zone of Control + Castle Keep's "Nearby battles do not affect culture". I think this latter ability only works if you are playing with Influence Driven War turned on, but ZoC is pretty strong to have early.

 

[<Nexus>]

All those sound good to me.

 

[Vokarya]

I had a few thoughts on putting checks on certain National Wonders.

I think Ironworks could go obsolete with Composites. I was just thinking along the lines of using Great Engineers and the <ForceBuildings> tag to be able to build multiple Ironworks. If they go obsolete, then the question becomes short-term gain with IW or long-term gain with settled GE.

Cotton Gin is a semi-National Wonder. Only a few cities are eligible (with Cotton in vicinity). I think this actually should go obsolete with Synthetic Fibers. By that point, the Gin is no longer useful enough to generate specialists. I don't really want the Gin upgrading and keeping its ability.

The Craft Wonders (Potter and others) feel like they don't have enough of an opportunity cost to me. I was actually thinking about how Glassware would interact with Greenhouse, and I don't think there are enough circumstances where you wouldn't have Glassware by that point. So I was thinking that each Craft Wonder should consume 1 citizen, or maybe more. I think that would encourage spreading out the Craft Wonders or possibly even not building them, although a good-sized civilization could easily take some citizen hits.

 

[<Nexus>]

I think Ironworks could go obsolete with Composites. I was just thinking along the lines of using Great Engineers and the <ForceBuildings> tag to be able to build multiple Ironworks. If they go obsolete, then the question becomes short-term gain with IW or long-term gain with settled GE.

Why complicate it? Just make it it regular building with a cost of -1. Any building that can be built only by a great person is a quasi-national-wonder.

 

[Vokarya]

Why complicate it? Just make it it regular building with a cost of -1. Any building that can be built only by a great person is a quasi-national-wonder.

I still want players to be able to build one Ironworks with just hammers.

Actually, I had a better idea. I've never liked having both the Ironworks and the Steel Mill, and I think they should be merged. The resulting building would look like this.

• Ironworks name, art assets, Civilopedia background and cost.
  
• Requires Steel tech, Iron resource, Coal resource. No building requirement -- craft Wonders don't have building requirements, other National Wonders do.
• National Wonder, limit 3. <bNoLimit> tag is turned on.
• +25% production, additional +10% with Power. This is less than the existing Ironworks, but you can build 3 of them and they stack with everything else (since they don't count against the NW limit).
• Provides 3 Steel resources (same as before)
  
• 1 Engineer slot. You can get 5 specialist slots from National Wonders: 2 from Labor Union, 3 from each of 3 Ironworks.
• -2 health, same as both Ironworks and Steel Mill.
• Great Engineer can still auto-build this but it's not a <ForceBuildings>.

This solves the problem by making Ironworks a Craft Wonder that, by convention, doesn't have a building requirement. Replaceable Parts still has 2.5 tricks: Textile Mill, Cotton Gin, and +1 hammer for Watermill and Windmill.

 

[<Nexus>]

I've never liked having both the Ironworks and the Steel Mill, and I think they should be merged.

I always thought you want to keep them both but I like this solution better.

 

[Vokarya]

I always thought you want to keep them both but I like this solution better.

I'm totally fine with cutting anything that's too close to something else. Most of this is already done, especially aligning buildings into replacement lines. I'm a little uncertain on Bazaar vs. Market.