Wait until Legalism for monument in cap?

[Illinus]

I almost always will put off building monument in my cap entirely and just wait to get legalism and get it for free. I generally play immortal and virtually always do 3 city tradition.

My normal build is:
Scout
2-4 turns on a worker until Pottery is finished
Switch to Shrine after researching Pottery
Finish worker
Settler, chop a forest to accelerate build and minimize cap growth loss, during this time I normally hit 25 culture to open tradition then its a quick 7-8 turns for legalism + free monument.
Granary, usually

I can't justify 'wasting' 8 turns on a Monument so early when I know I can get it for free in about 30 turns. Why pay when you can get it for free?! If you're lucky enough to hit an early culture ruin, then it's a no-brainer. I realize it slows border growth but I don't have the pop or workers to even need/work the extra tiles early. If there's something really juicy one ring away I'll just buy the tile to stabilize gold, production or growth if needed.

The bigger drawback is waiting 25 turns until first social policy, but those extra ~8 turns to get a worker and settler up and running seem worth it.

I'd imagine a common reaction to this is -why build a shrine so early on immortal, you'll probably be converted by a religious AI anyway, build monument instead- I think getting an early pantheon and getting my first 3 cities converted can really be a huge benefit. I'll normally pick a resource-dependent culture or faith pantheon then tithe +something else as opener beliefs.

Curious to hear your thoughts,

 

[vivalamexico]

I too usually wait for Legalism, but I usually go with a second scout. This enhances your chances of getting that 20 ruin. Instead of starting the worker 2nd I steal one ASAP. But I usually don't include a monument in my early build when going trad (unless going for free amps)

 

[Acken]

I go with 2 scouts. If my warrior + 1st scout have not find a culture ruin, I'll make a monument otherwise I make a shrine or a 3rd scout. Waiting 25turns for your first policy is just too slow. And a free amphitheater isn't too bad.

 

[BrokTheFanatic]

All depends on whether or not I have ruins on/off

 

[joncnunn]

I always skip the Monument and use Legalism for it.

#1: I find I really want Monarchy right away in BNW for the cash & happiness bonus in the capital, and Legalism is required for this.

#2: While a monument doesn't take many raw hammers, there's so many other things that you could be building around then. It's much easier to later fit an Amphitheater into the capital's building plan sometime between completing writing guild and spawning the first Great Writer than fitting a Monument into the build plan fast enough to avoid slowing down Legalism.

 

[Memoryjar]

Monument first. Scout can wait, land elite and free aqueduct not. Also with a monument and legalism it's a free amphi. So faster border expand.

 

[budweiser]

OP - At what turn number are you finishing tradition? If I want trad done asap, I usually open with monument.

Memoryjar - If you have decent hammers you can also do scout first then monument and still get a policy by t15 or 16. Just look for the case when this is true.

Hard built monument would imply D&P sooner. Perhaps directly after writing which opens Parthenon. Parthenon is a TON of culture and the AI does not finish it until 700BC.

But why are soldiers included in the picture of Parthenon?

 

[Ryika]

Scout -> Monument.

I'll even cancel the Monument if I find an Culture Ruin before it's ~half done and switch to a worker. While Landed Elite is a nice bonus, an earlier worker (and everything else that follows) is usually the better deal for me. And aqueducts... well, as long as I get them before Civil Service is done, it's just not much of a difference.

However, without a culture ruin it's a really harsh delay. Wouldn't want to wait THAT long. For me it's either Culture Ruin or Monument.

 

[Buridan]

you could have made a poll, distinguishing people that use legalism for Monument or for amphi or even later buildings. Sometimes I'm using it straight for monument, sometimes not...

 

[Tabarnak]

I never build a monument if i start with Tradition. Never. Scouting and early granary are far more important. With aggressive scouting you raise your chances to hit a culture ruin or partially/completely ally a cultural cs(quests).

 

[Xiao Xiong]

Scout, scout, granary, library is my core build queue, I may insert a shrine ahead of granary if I want a religion.

I almost never build a worker, instead, I use the scout I build to steal one.

If I have *lots* of hammers I might build the monument between granary and library, sometimes there's enough hammers to do it. Usually I just pop it from legalism, my focus until at least after the library is pure population growth.

It is hard to understate the value of the scouts. Not only do they find ruins, they find city states. You get gold for that, 30 if you find them faster than others. I use that gold to buy tiles around my capital, so that my citizens are always working the best possible tiles, never working plains or grassland. Finding a couple of CS's with my scout means that brand new citizen gets to work second ring cows instead of first ring grassland.

 

[Memoryjar]

Memoryjar - If you have decent hammers you can also do scout first then monument and still get a policy by t15 or 16. Just look for the case when this is true.

Hard built monument would imply D&P sooner. Perhaps directly after writing which opens Parthenon. Parthenon is a TON of culture and the AI does not finish it until 700BC.
?

I tried sometimes and if I have decent hammers I build a scout. But early extension borders and free amphi in my caps ensure me to have the right tiles (specially hills which governor tends to ignore or luxs in round 3) in my capital. I'm a little bit frustrate when I need to buy a tile (except with America).

 

[Talamare]

I always go Monument -> Scout -> Granary

Relying on Ruins to have a good game doesn't calculate in my mind

A T7 Monument vs Legalism Monument is the difference of a turn 25 Landed Elite vs a turn 40 Landed Elite

I rather have +15 turns of +2 Food than having a chance of getting something good, which assumes I would not have managed to get that thing with my Warrior or slightly late scout.

 

[reddishrecue]

I would go monument scout granary and have legalism build the amphitheater instead so that way you can have an easier way to make space for great works of writing.

 

[Bad Wolf]

2 scouts (huts!) then shrine (if going for religion) then monument. I pretty much rely on popping a culture hut and grabbing Tradition for early culture. It sucks when that doesn't happen, but I usually manage to snag a culture hut with two scouts on the go.

 

[Avatan]

Early hammers >> later hammers.
I go scout - (scout on Pangea) - worker - (granary if appropriate ressources) - settler - archer - settler.

Having those two settlers early allows you to take best city spots/ most strategic location, kick start your science and allows early NC build. Definitely better than a free amphitheater IMO...


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

And then you're like me and try to attempt to get a free Amphitheatre, bu then I'm playing the Songhai and accidentally get a free Mud Mosque Pyramid... which is already free.

Nuts.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

And then you're like me and try to attempt to get a free Amphitheatre, bu then I'm playing the Songhai and accidentally get a free Mud Mosque Pyramid... which is already free.

Nuts.

You still save the hammers from not constructing them, maybe you should gain one (2) gold from them instead to keep the policy (free bonus)

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

True, I never went with Piety that game so it was a few hammers saved. Thanks for helping me look at things on the bright side.

Though I have bad tendency to pick one point in Honour for Barb hunting. Especially if I'm Songhai (Fast cash), Germany (More units) or Aztecs (Double the Culture).

 

[lokithepunishr]

If I haven't found a culture ruin when the 2nd scout finishes I'll build a monument