War Now

[Zwelgje]

Well G-man I can understand what you mean but I think there is one mistake you are making. You say that the Palestinians are always breaking the agreements. It is true that some idiots who claim they represent the Palestinians always attack the Israelis no matter if an agreement exists or not. But I think the vast majority of the Palestinians want peace as bad as most Israelis do. The problem is that after such an attack all Palestinians are being punished and then all the fighting starts again.
This is just my opinion, however I don't think you will agree because I've got the feeling that you think all Palestinians are bloodthirsty idiots, right?

 

[geake]

Originally posted by G-Man
civ1-addict
The Palestinians broke every agreement we've ever signed with them. They broke the Oslo agreement, the 1982 agreements, and four cease fire agreements. Do you really think Israel will negotiate with them before they start doinmg something?

Israel doesn't respect neither UN resolutions nor Oslo agreements otherwise they would have returned occupied terrotories or at least stopped building more colonies in those territories.

Juize & geake
Israel isn't fighting the Palestinians but the terrorists. However, it is the PA's duty to stop terrorist that work in it's territory. So Israel is attacking PA facilities that support terrorists. But Israel isn't attacking Palestinians that haven't done anything. Further more, Israel is running a very large humanitarian aid project to help Palestinians, although they have their own goverment that should to take care of them.

Yesterday, two more children were killed during a helicopter attack in the middle of a marketplace. They were 13 and 3 years old. The father of that kid is probably going to die soon in the hospital. If Israel doesn't fight the palestinians as you say, they could use more accurate methods than missiles to kill the terrorists. Furthermore, the palestinian government is arresting supposed terrorists right now. Why does Israel expect Palestinia to arrest people while destroying their facilities.
There's right now an american diplomat, Mr Zinni, in israel who has come to try to calm both sides and make them stop violence. Sharon had promised him to stop the attacks, but he continued. Sharon doesn't even seem to be willing to talk with Israel's best support. Zinni is now about to give up and go back to the US.


Israel is carrying humanitarian aid? I guess they use tanks to carry the supplies to Palestinia. We think they invade palestinian cities but they're actually bringing food and shelters to them.

 

[G-Man]

geake -
Israel never commited to immedietly stop settlments. It was a part of the oslo agreement that was implemented untill the Palestinians broke it.
Also, if Arafat is arresting terrorists then why was there a suicide bombing yesterday? And why are leaders still free? Or should I remind you Ataf Abiat, the terrorist Arafat showed the european deligation was under arrest and less then two weeks later blew himself up?
And about Zinni - When he thretened he'll go away he said it was because "it's a waste of time. Arafat isn't doing anything". Sharon promised to withdraw, and the day he did so 27 Israelis were killed. After that he didn't have much choice and as you can see the Americans know that.
And if you're also against the humanitarian aid then I guess you just wanna see everyone but you suffer 'cause there's no other explanation to what you said.

civ1-addict
We have to deal with this Palestinian leadership. If the Palestinians want another leader they'll have to choose one for themselves. Untill they do this is the Only leadership they have.

 

[geake]

Originally posted by G-Man
geake -
Israel never commited to immedietly stop settlments. It was a part of the oslo agreement that was implemented untill the Palestinians broke it.

Israel never stopped building colonies in territories they were supposed to return. This looks like a break of the agreements to me.

Also, if Arafat is arresting terrorists then why was there a suicide bombing yesterday? And why are leaders still free? Or should I remind you Ataf Abiat, the terrorist Arafat showed the european deligation was under arrest and less then two weeks later blew himself up?

I'm sorry about that, but you must realize that as long as israel will attack terrorists and kill children in the meantime, there will be more and more people willing to die as human bombs.

You ask why there was a suicide bombing yesterday? Well maybe it was in retaliation to the attacks. It's me who is retaliating! No it's me! No, me! And this lasted for the 50 last years. Somebody has to stop, and if you consider Israel as a more evolved country as palestinia, then you should clearly see the necessity of stopping the bloodshed, and understand that this is israel which has the opportunity of ending the war. Arafat cannot put a policeman behind every person who could become a human bomb because israel killed his son in retaliation for another bombing!

And even if Israel crushes Arafat and PA no longer exists there will still be terrorists! Maybe even more than before. Attacking Arafat's facilities won't solve anything in any way.

And about Zinni - When he thretened he'll go away he said it was because "it's a waste of time. Arafat isn't doing anything". Sharon promised to withdraw, and the day he did so 27 Israelis were killed. After that he didn't have much choice and as you can see the Americans know that.

Well obviously we don't have the same sources of information. I was talking about yesterday.
And one more thing about yesterday attack. I think the target managed to escape. But 2 children died. What's the point?

And if you're also against the humanitarian aid then I guess you just wanna see everyone but you suffer 'cause there's no other explanation to what you said.

that was irony.

 

[Tecumseh]

It is depressing and sad to read posts containing blind nationalistic and frankly even racist statements. I will not mention anyone particular, but those of you who are justifying terror against a whole population and people as defense against terrorism, you should be more humble and try do more thinking about your statements.

This is my first post, and unfortunately it is in category OT - but I could not avoid react to some posts in this threads.

However, people like Geake and Little Raven give me a reason for at least reading OT posts at CFF.

 

[VoodooAce]

Arafat and Sharon are both monsters. Simple as that.

When you have two monsters like them in charge of two peoples that hate each other, what do we expect.

They both make demands that they know full well the other side can NOT accept. And then say, "see! they don't want peace, so let's blow them all to hell." Ridiculous.

Neither of these guys want peace. Sharon knew damn well what he was starting with his little trip to 'the wall' last year.

And, while I used to believe, or at least wanted to believe that Arafat wanted peace, I find it harder and harder to believe now. He says an awful lot, but I just haven't seen a lot of, I dunno, effort? Although, I'm not sure what the Israelis expect him to do.....realistically.

I think that, even if he DID want peace, there are forces amongst the Palestineans that will never allow it. Same with the Israelis. Some of them will NEVER allow peace with Palestine.

And when it did begin to look like peace was a remote possibility, some right-wing nut puts a bullet in Rabin.

It's the bloods and the crips.....it's all about the retaliation and revenge, now.

Maybe they just need to wipe each other off the face of the earth before it all ends......just so long as they don't take the rest of us with them.

 

[VoodooAce]

One question I would like to ask.

Can anybody, on either side, that feels very strongly that they are right even BEGIN to see the other side's position?



Are the Palestinians and Israelis SO completely blinded by their hatred that they can't begin to understand what the other side is so pissed about?

More importanly, can anyone on either side actually ADMIT that their side has also been wrong, and also committed atrocities that are inexcusable? I've never seen that, so just wondering.

I'm an unbiased observer, all the way on the other side of the planet, but the whole thing is just so ridiculous. Both sides continue to srew over the other side, over and over and over and over and over again. Yes, BOTH sides.

Right now believers in both sides are thinking I jsut don't know, cuz I don't live there and haven't had my sister blown up by a suicide bomber, or lost my son to an Israeli rocket.

I'm not saying that each side doesn't have it's points. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. Both sides are right in many ways and wrong any many more.

 

[G-Man]

"Israel never stopped building colonies in territories they were supposed to return. This looks like a break of the agreements to me"

We did stop. And all these "colonies" (not really colonies 'cause the area was taken over as self defence and not in an Israeli aggression) would've been in Palestinian hands if Arafat wouldn't start this intifada hoping to get even more.


"you consider Israel as a more evolved country as palestinia, then you should clearly see the necessity of stopping the bloodshed, and understand that this is israel which has the opportunity of ending the war"

What oppurtunity? Whenever there's a cease fire Arafat breaks it!


"Can anybody, on either side, that feels very strongly that they are right even BEGIN to see the other side's position?"

Israel has a large left wing. But I've never heard of one in the Palestinian side...
And it's not that Israelis don't think about what the Palestinians want, it's just that we offered them a state, gave them lands, food and money and the only thing they gave us was a dramatic increase in the number of attacks against Israel. How can anyone be wanting to give them even more after that?
Another thing - The west wall is THE most important place to jewish people. Sharon is Jewish. Do you think any democracy can ban people from comming to their holy places?
And, while Arafat will probably lead the Palestinians till his death, Israelis will change PM if they'll feel that Sharon isn't doing enough for the peace process. But as long as Arafat isn't fighting terrorists there isn't any peace process.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by geake


Israel doesn't respect neither UN resolutions nor Oslo agreements otherwise they would have returned occupied terrotories or at least stopped building more colonies in those territories.

Would you respect United Nations resolutions if they acted against the peace and sovereignty of France? No.

Ariel Sharon is the Prime Minister of Isreal, Kofi Annan is NOT.

The United Nations is terrible. They have power, but they did not earn it democratically. Even Hitler was elected through a fair process.

 

[G-Man]

The UN has always been against Israel. After calling Israeli patriotism racism they can't expect Israelis to listen to what they say. Also - they told us to withdraw from Lebanon, we did, and now the hizzbalah shoot AT missiles on us. The UN force that was supposed to keep the peace isn't much help either. They video taped the kidnaping of the Israeli soldiers but it took them almost 15 months to bring these tapes to Israel and they still hasn't returned the families the personal items they found in the area. And what about the idiotic solution they found to Ragar?
They say that they're defending the weak & are after peace but allow the majority of countries to make a war against a single country legitimate through voting.
After what the UN has done to Israel it would be more appropriate to them then to listen to them, as untill now they almost always supported our enemies.

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by G-Man
The UN has always been against Israel. After calling Israeli patriotism racism they can't expect Israelis to listen to what they say. Also - they told us to withdraw from Lebanon, we did, and now the hizzbalah shoot AT missiles on us. The UN force that was supposed to keep the peace isn't much help either. They video taped the kidnaping of the Israeli soldiers but it took them almost 15 months to bring these tapes to Israel and they still hasn't returned the families the personal items they found in the area. And what about the idiotic solution they found to Ragar?
They say that they're defending the weak & are after peace but allow the majority of countries to make a war against a single country legitimate through voting.
After what the UN has done to Israel it would be more appropriate to them then to listen to them, as untill now they almost always supported our enemies.

Yeah, just another terrorist organization supporting those dirty bloodthirsty violent propaganda-m*******s.


It's pretty interesting that you first say that the palestinians are m*******s because they have
broken some UN deal, and then, when we find out that you have broken it, then the UN changes
to a not-fair organization.

 

[G-Man]

The oslo agreement wasn't the UN's, its was signed between Israel, the Palestinians and the US, with financial support to the Palestinian coming from the EU.

 

[PinkyGen]

Ah, don't worry, only eight more of the infidels have been killed by the brave Palestinian freedom fighters.

Ok. sarcasm off.

While the helicopter strikes are nice, it's obvious Sharon isn't going to do anything more, such as reoccupying the West Bank or building a fence. If I were Sharon, my next best option would be simple: Get rid of Arafat. (though try not to make it look like you did it, if possible). It's a lot better than accidently killing civilians under the current strategy.

Two possible results:

1. Palestinians appoint someone who wants peace. Very, very, very, unlikely, but if this happens, it is to Israel's benefit to have an actual partner.

2. The more likely result, Hamas or another faction like them takes over. Why this would also be good
a. Hamas and like factions are already carrying out these attacks, so being officially in charge won't make them worse, since Arafat barely did anything to stop them anyway.
b. Israel will finally have an enemy who will admit to being an adversary, and not equivocate like Arafat does.
c. There international support from the EU and the US and evaporate.

Oh, this most likely violates some form of international law. But I view the situation as a war, not a series of incidents.

 

[G-Man]

That's just the problem. Israel wants to end this 50 years old conflict. We gave the Palestinians lands and promised them more, and they did nothing. But the intl. community doesn't care that Arafat hasn't done anything in order to bring peace, they still see him as the only Palestinian leader that'll bring peace. Shoot me if I know why. Just like I don't understand why he got the nobel peace prize - he didn't give up anything for peace, he just got things. Israel gave him lands, money, authority, recognition and support. If for getting these things you get a nobel peace prize then I guess however is giving these prizes away should go on an early retirement.
I just don't get it. Today the Americans are trying to solve terrorism in Afghanistan by giving authority to Afghan leaders that say they want peace and will stop terrorism. But if these leaders will allow terror orgenizations to do whatever they want the US will kick them away immedietly. But we have to try and work things out while he's sending his troops to kill us.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by Juize


Yeah, just another terrorist organization supporting those dirty bloodthirsty violent propaganda-m*******s.


It's pretty interesting that you first say that the palestinians are m*******s because they have
broken some UN deal, and then, when we find out that you have broken it, then the UN changes
to a not-fair organization.

Oh please...it's too bad you weren't around in the late 70's...you would've been wearing a pro-Ayatollah T-shirt.

There hasn't been a fair deal issued by the United Nations to Isreal, EVER. It's all been Arafat and the Isreali Prime Minister...

 

[ComradeDavo]

Even Hitler was elected through a fair process

small point: Hitler persuaded President Hidenburg to use article 48 to ban the communists (the KPD) from standing in the 1932 elections, after he had his followers 'persuade' a 'communist' to burn down the Reichstag building. Not exactly fair if you ask me.
Also I would hardly call George W Bush;s election fair either.

now, back to Isreal: here is a simple view of the situation.

Palestinian fire gun at Isreali settlement in anger at it being built on Palestinian land. Fair do's, if a <<insert random nationality here>> came and built on my land i'd probably want to shoot at them!!

Isreal sends in tabk to area where gunmen fired from

Palestinian sucide bomber attacks army post in revenge

Isreal occupies Palestinian territory to arrest more millitants

Palestian sucide bomber blows self up in civilain area

Isreal demands Arafat clamp down then goes and blows up a palestinian police station.....

and so on and so forth.

Basically it's a really *****y situation, which is gonna take serious diplomatic disscussion involving all sides to resolve.

 

[omichyron]

I just don't get it. Today the Americans are trying to solve terrorism in Afghanistan by giving authority to Afghan leaders that say they want peace and will stop terrorism. But if these leaders will allow terror orgenizations to do whatever they want the US will kick them away immedietly. But we have to try and work things out while he's sending his troops to kill us.

The United States has always been primarily concerned with its own interests. It obviously is too big to be bullied by the U.N., so if terrorists go after America, they get hurt. If they go after our allies, they (sometimes) get scolded. Unfortunately, that's just how things work when the majority of the people in a country are out to correct every wrong in the world... until it looks like it might take some effort, at which point they just don't care unless it affects them directly. Plus I've known insects with longer intelligence spans. Almost certainly, people are like this wherever you go, they just don't have a chance to display it, not being resident to superpowers, but one really wishes they would learn at some point. I blame the media... but then I always blame the media.

 

[Siggy]

Originally posted by G-Man
It's very easy to say Israel is opressing the Palestinians. But these aren't our citizens! They're the citizens of the PA, and aren't our responsibility:
- If they're poor it's because Arafat doesn't care about Palestinian economy and still runs the PA like he used to run his terror orgenizations - all resources go to buying weapons and things for him. He has 3 (5 untill yesterday) luxerious Helicopters, private airport & jets, palaces, all payed for using donations from other countries. Name one thing he did to improve Palestinian economy.
- If they're under closures it's because as soon as Israel lifts closures a wave of terror hits the country.
- If they need to stay at home in fear of being hit it's because they're goverment isn't fighting terrorism and Israel is forced to.
- If Israelis still live in the west bank it's because Arafat didn't accept the peace agreement Israel offered him and decided to start the intifada.
- If children are being accidently hit it's because their parents send them to study in the Hamas education system (used, ofcource, to make these children into potential suicide bombers) that uses the Hamas's facilities.
- If political leader are being targeted by Israel it's beacuse they're also military leaders.
- If the cycle of violence goes on it's beacue when Israel declared a one-side cease fire and stopped closures after the discotech killing the PA used it to send suicide bombers into Israel.

The Palestinians tried to build a large seaport in Gaza, but the israelis succesfully twarted that attempt... Futhermore it is a bit hard to maintain or to build an effective and stable economy if your import and export is controlled by a foreign country, your land is colonized by foreign settlers, your logistics are messed up because of all the roadblocks which are spreading over your country like some strange sort of disease... I guess it was very easy to have critics on palestinian economics.

I am really sorry to see that Israeli people are under the influence of a very effective propaganda machine. Every time I see an Israeli answer on this forum about the troubles over there, I see retorics. The last fifty years I consider to be a very black page in Jewish history. At last the Jewish people got their own state after many centuries of oppression and what do they do? They do the same thing to the people living there.

I guess history is cynical and ironic sometimes.

 

[G-Man]

Siggy
Israel isn't oppressing and it isn't at all like the way Jews were treated in europe.
Today the Palestinians have a choice if they want to continue with this conflict. Israel did everything it could in order to restore peace, but the Palestinians just used these attempts in order to get more suicide bombers to Israel. The jews in europe were forced out of their homes (Just a note - Palestinians aren't forced out of their homes. Ones terrorists use a building as shelter when shooting at Israelis it cannot be defined as a civilian building anymore. If the people that live there wouldn't allow terrorists to use their living room they could've stayed in their homes) and murdered. Palestinians aren't killed by Israel because of who they are but because of things they specificaly did.
Jews in europe didn't kill christian civilians.
The europeans didn't give jews a country of their own.
The europeans never gave the jews anything.

So you can clearly see your equasion was all wrong.

And about the Palestinian economy - When they kept peace, Israel helped them. We made special arrengments in order to allow them to build the airport, we collected the taxes for them and helped our tourism companies to orgenize tours that'll include tourist attractions in PA territory, gave working permissions to over 200,000 Palestinian that wanted to work in Israel and gave their cops everything they need in order to help keep the law - training, weapons (that were later used against us), offices, etc.
There weren't any closures if we were able to lift them without getting killed. There weren't settlers if Arafat would sign the final peace agreement insted of starting the intifada. They could've import and export without Israeli supervision if they wouldn't use this trade in order to get weapons.
In peace times the Palestinian economy grew in an amazing speed, thanks to the fact that they don't have any outcomes, only incomes. Everything a regular country pays for they got for free from someone else.




"Palestinian fire gun at Isreali settlement in anger at it being built on Palestinian land. Fair do's, if a <<insert random nationality here>> came and built on my land i'd probably want to shoot at them!! "

And what if you attacked that random country and they took over your land as self defence, and offer you to get it back if you won't shoot them?

 

[geake]

Originally posted by G-Man

Palestinians aren't killed by Israel because of who they are but because of things they specificaly did.

Well, then you can maybe tell me what specifically did that 3 year old kid ...
Was he already a dangerous terrorist?