Wfyabta

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The part still not clear to me is whether the "knowing" is restroctive. Do techs I get from a civ before I meet a later civ count when I meet that later civ? Do they count if I've killed the civ that gave me the tech before I meet the later civ? Sorry for the redundancy, as I think this was already asked, but I didn't understand the answer.

It is not retroactive.

 

[druidravi]

Hmm that is nice. In a current emperor game I , playing as Gandhi share a continent with Brennus and Mao. All three of us are friendly with each other. So does this mean I can keep on trading for techs like archery etc without accumalting in the next continent civilization's counter. And if one of them becomes pleased ( Brennus likes Organized Relegion so he is friendly ,but I might want to switch to Pacifism which might make makie him pleased) then does he count all those cheap deals he has done with me while being friendy , ( he was at WYBTA before he became friendly).
What happens to war extortion I used to get all those cheap techs from some AI for peace . Are sure it counts. Does it count when the AI initiates the trade. I have read somewhere that civilizations might themselves initiate a trade even after you have hit the WYBTA limit with them. Is that true. So peace time begging also counts right.
Sorry for all those questions. I like tech-whoring so wanted to be sure about all these things .

 

[cabert]

the fact that he is friendly doesn't prevent him from remembering the trades you got.
He just accepts to go over the limit.
So as soon as he isn't friendly anymore, WFYBTA will be there.

 

[Ankh-f-n-Khonsu]

So the AIs that know each other, and the player, keep track of tech trades. Is there some similar mechanism whereby the player can easily determine which AI has been trading with which? This game seems generally fair, insofar as the AI are typically under the same constraints as the player (notwithstanding bonuses at various levels), but I've never found a way to be alerted to AI trades, and that seems to me unfair given that they have a ready view of the matter.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

- this can be verified by modding the DLL to report each time a DENIAL_TECH_WHORE occurs (CvTeamAI::AI_techTrade)

Please elaborate on this code here. Does the game already have the term tech whore in the programming, or is this something you cooked up?

it's no surprise that Mansa Musa is the most tolerant, the only guy at 20

great question directly above, that would be good to know.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Please elaborate on this code here. Does the game already have the term tech whore in the programming, or is this something you cooked up?

You'll find DENIAL_TECH_WHORE in your unmodded copy of CIV; CIV4GameTextInfos.xml, CIV4BasicInfos.xml, etc. All I did was add some code to tell me when it happened (so that I could determine if it also happened in AI->AI relations).

From what I can tell, though - no there is no way for a human player to find out about AI->AI trades; there doesn't appear to be an existing feature to do that, nor does it look like there's a hook so that it could be easily modded in with a python extension.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

Well, between Vassals and checking every turn what the others have, assuming you have a lead and offer a deal, could could keep track and if done with enough games, maybe come up with patterns. Who's got a year to kill?

 

[Thrallia]

This is a good thread, but I'm not entirely sure all civs will ignore their counter when friendly.

In a recent game, I had Izzy friendly with me(+20) pretty much the entire game, and yet she refused to trade with me because of WFYABTA for huge stretches, during which she was constantly friendly.

It is possible perhaps that some of the AI still have a counter, albeit a larger one, for friendly relations. I also think that AI-AI trades must have a higher counter as well because it seems as if they are always constantly trading with each other, regardless of how many techs they've traded away.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

In a recent game, I had Izzy friendly with me(+20) pretty much the entire game, and yet she refused to trade with me because of WFYABTA for huge stretches, during which she was constantly friendly.

Do you have a save file that demonstrates this? If you were to provide that, I would donate the effort to determine why your experience doesn't match what I found examining the code in the SDK.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

In a recent game, I had Izzy friendly with me(+20) pretty much the entire game, and yet she refused to trade with me because of WFYABTA for huge stretches, during which she was constantly friendly.

I've seen the same with Izzy too

 

[merdyl]

mean?

newbie question

 

[Collier20]

WFYABTA = We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advance

 

[Mercenary82]

So the AIs that know each other, and the player, keep track of tech trades. Is there some similar mechanism whereby the player can easily determine which AI has been trading with which? This game seems generally fair, insofar as the AI are typically under the same constraints as the player (notwithstanding bonuses at various levels), but I've never found a way to be alerted to AI trades, and that seems to me unfair given that they have a ready view of the matter.

Nope, there is no way at all to find out when the AI trades, this is something I've tried to look for also. I get really annoyed when the AI knows I'm trading with his worst enemies, but I can't find out when they trade with my worst enemies.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I've seen the same with Izzy too

Invitation to post the save is open to all.

Do note, please, that we are only talking about items redded out for Tech Whoring. There are other reasons that techs may be redded out, even if Izzybabe is Friendly.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/59743/Izzy_friendly_but_WFYABTA-1494.CivWarlordsSave

She tells me she fears you are becoming too advanced on Biology at least can't remember about the other 2 techs she has on me.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

She tells me she fears you are becoming too advanced on Biology at least can't remember about the other 2 techs she has on me.

Thanks, my article needs an update.

The one word answer is: Vassals.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Thanks, my article needs an update.

The one word answer is: Vassals.

I'm afraid you need more than one word to explain the answer to me.

 

[Mutineer]

Friendly civs will never shun you for tech whoring.

That is no longer correct in Warlords, Frieldly relationship now does not mean anything if:

Civ you listed friendly with does not like you vassal. If does not matter if that civ your vassal or not.
Civ is listed friendly in relationships, but can refuse to trade/open border with excuse "We just do not like you enogth!"

This happened to as in Acid Better AI game and in my private games, as I often getting Vassals.
In Acid game Toky was listed friendly but was canceling deals and did not tarde tech.
In my private games Toky was my Vassal, was listed friendly but did not likle Ragnar, my other vassal. Refused to trade tech with excuse that he just does not like me enogth.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm afraid you need more than one word to explain the answer to me.

Mutineer has the basic idea correct.

Details:

A close reading of my first post would catch that the function involved in trading is a team function (CvTeamAI) rather than a player function (CvPlayerAI). Therefore, the attitude referenced in redding out the techs is not your trading partner's attitude toward you (which is what is displayed on the trade screen), but instead your trading partner's team's attitude toward your team.

For these purposes, her team is her and all of her permanent allies. Your team is you, your permanent allies, and your vassals.

Furthermore, the value that is used is the average attitude of these relationships. Note that attitude means Friendly, Pleased, etc. not +10 or +20 or whatever the net of the plusses and minuses is.

And as usual, the averaging is done with integer division, which rounds down on any excuse to do so. Thus, for her team to have a friendly attitude toward yours, it is necessary that every permanent ally on that team have a friendly attitude toward all of your allies and your vassals.

From what I can tell, the attitude of her vassals doesn't come into play at all. I didn't have enough time this morning to establish whether her attitude toward your ally's vassal matters at all.

When I've had a chance to satisfy myself that I have the details of this undertood, I'll update the first post so that the close reading I mentioned earlier is no longer essential.

Edit: to clarify, vassals aren't essential. You could run into the same problem with no vassals if the ally of your trade partner didn't share her high opinion of you.

 

[Mutineer]

Might be correct, but I do not undestand how member of MY team might not like his team. I am refering to the case when Toky was one of my vassals, but was refusing to trade with me when having firendly status with me.

I consider that a bug, invisible modifyers in relationships.
Vassals between themself and with master do not share tecnology automatically like teams do. So, I am fall to undestand the logic of considering it to be a team trade.