What after the New Frontier Pass - the end or more

[SammyKhalifa]

I like board game, I just don't want Civ to feel like one, and Civ6 is completely assuming its identity, from the (oversized) graphisms to the gameplay design, it's a board game, and surely a good one, but not what I want to play on my computer.

I mean I don't think it feels any more like a board game than any other version, but to each their own. I don't think that "feel" is going anywhere as long as there are turns.

(And spaces on the play area. And resource management. And "units" or game pieces.)

 

[Zegangani]

“Appeals to modding” are, to me, the weakest argument in favor of convincing the devs to do anything. I’d much rather have official content than modded content any time.

An officially finished Game that gets great Mods from Modders (especially those that depend on the DLL) means more Money for the Game Developpement Studio/Publisher withot to sweat for it, as many of those Mods would require DLCs that a lot of Players would buy them just to use those Mods. And also, many players would only buy a Game if they know that the DLL came out and Modders made something great from it (many People from different Forums discuss exactly this).

Tbh, I can't find a difference between Modded Mods and the Official Game Modes. The Modes don't even get used effeciantly by the AI (same as Mods). And Mods made with making use of DLL to make AI use the content of it efficiantly, would be much better than Official Content that don't even interact properly with the Game's Mechanisms. AND Modders are more likely to Fix Bugs and Balance their Mods (or other Modders would do that instead, we have seen many examples) very quickly. The Devs Hands are tied to FXS's/2K's Decisions and Resources (if it wasn't NFP, who would have thought that we would get 2/3 of the Civs polished in a Free update?).

It’s also unclear to me on why you might think that the cessation of development means anything for modding (the dlls to Civ 4 and 5 were released well before the development cycles for those games were finished).

Finally, I don’t much care that NFP had realistic or unrealistic content. I just want it to be good.

I said could. But it's just a Hope that I can't give up on till the Game ends and the Devs make a clear statement on it. So far, they just said: currently not planning to release the DLL. I DO think they want to release it, there just might be some foreign Company Rights involved with the DLL that would explain why they couldn't release it earlier. And if that's really the case there is no hope for it.

I'm not desliking the Modes, aside from the Bugs that will get fixed eventually, I actually find them Fun to play with (except Apocalypse), but there are too few realistic Game Modes, and even they are not... deep. I mostly play because of the Mechanisms (that's what brings me enjoyment) in the game and don't bother about new Civs/Leaders, and NFP was unfortunately quite underwhelming in that regard IMHO.

 

[pokiehl]

An officially finished Game that gets great Mods from Modders (especially those that depend on the DLL) means more Money for the Game Developpement Studio/Publisher withot to sweat for it, as many of those Mods would require DLCs that a lot of Players would buy them just to use those Mods.

This is pure conjecture. The vast majority of the Civ 6 playerbase doesn't use mods, and none of the new platforms Civ 6 is available on support modding.

And also, many players would only buy a Game if they know that the DLL came out and Modders made something great from it (many People from different Forums discuss exactly this).

Again, pure conjecture and hearsay. I've never read anyone say that here or on Reddit - all we can do is say "nuh uh" to each other here, but given my first point about how modders are a minority of players, I fail to see how releasing the DLL does anything significant to boost sales or otherwise give profit to Firaxis.

And Mods made with making use of DLL to make AI use the content of it efficiantly, would be much better than Official Content that don't even interact properly with the Game's Mechanisms.

Again, pure conjecture. You're taking something that hasn't happened and speaking about an outcome as if it's set in stone. How about this: "mods making use of the DLL will be unbalanced fan ideas, poorly optimized, crash-prone, and break MP with constant desyncs." Neither one of us can disprove the other here.

AND Modders are more likely to Fix Bugs and Balance their Mods (or other Modders would do that instead, we have seen many examples) very quickly.

Again, I disagree with your premise here. Yes, modders have the luxury of being completely independent and free to update their mods whenever they want (but they don't have to and often won't; many mods are abandoned), but I don't find many mods balanced very well at all.

but there are too few realistic Game Modes

This is all individual taste. The most "realistic" game mode (Corporations & Monopolies) is by far my least favorite one. I find it boring and in its current state it's just broken. But stuff like Apocalypse Mode, Shuffle, Heroes, and Secret Societies? Sign me up! These have added a ton of fun and whimsy to the game to me.

 

[Abaxial]

I myself would prefer a few years of playing a perfected Civ 6 with all the bugs and annoyances ironed out, before ditching it in favour of an all-new Civ 7.

 

[PiR]

This is pure conjecture. The vast majority of the Civ 6 playerbase doesn't use mods, and none of the new platforms Civ 6 is available on support modding.

Again, pure conjecture. You're taking something that hasn't happened and speaking about an outcome as if it's set in stone. How about this: "mods making use of the DLL will be unbalanced fan ideas, poorly optimized, crash-prone, and break MP with constant desyncs." Neither one of us can disprove the other here.

Just look at the other subsections of the forums. You'll see the tremendous works that have been done on mods.
Remember Civ 4 BTS? It actually included the best mods of the community, that's saying something.
Although, maybe the golden age of mods for Civ may be behind us, and mostly for the reasons that @Zegangani is complaining about (6 being much more restrictive than previous iterations, from what I read).

 

[Gedemon]

I mean I don't think it feels any more like a board game than any other version, but to each their own. I don't think that "feel" is going anywhere as long as there are turns.

(And spaces on the play area. And resource management. And "units" or game pieces.)

That's one of the points here, maybe the smallest maps of the franchise (since.. civ1 ?), unstacking cities to make the map even more cramped, 1UPT with combat rules not making sense at the game's scale. Again, it's a matter of relativity, bigger/smaller maps, more/less historical aspects, more/less pieces/cards placed on a board, more/less diplomatic actions that say "you're playing a game"/"you're leading an empire".

But I don't think civ7 will be closer to my tastes, I'm not interested in Colonization or another spin-off, neither do I think that another season pass or even an expansion could change civ6 the way I'd like it to change.

So my only interest is the game's moddability, be it civ6 or civ7.

And on that side I've no idea what would be best.

Another season means opportunities to get more exposed methods with scenarios, but also frequent updates that may not be mods-friendly.

A break and a big final patch (including fix to the modding tool, new assets) may be better, but may also leave the modding framework in an unfinished/limited states with the end of development and everyone moving to civ7... Which would be a terrible waste knowing how much work they did put on the modding framework this time (edit: unless it was a draft for civ7, let's try to be optimistic)

And civ7... well I won't buy it (or so I'm trying to convince myself) before knowing what are Firaxis real plans for modding this time.


edit2:

Just look at the other subsections of the forums. You'll see the tremendous works that have been done on mods.
Remember Civ 4 BTS? I actually included the best mods of the community, that's saying something.
Although, maybe the golden age of mods for Civ may be behind us, and mostly for the reasons that @Zegangani is complaining about (6 being much more restrictive than previous iterations, from what I read).

That depend of the type of mods you want, on the graphic side, civ6 is great, really great.

On the gameplay side, modifiers are powerful and relatively easy to use, a welcome addition.

But for AI modding or for total overhaul, the lack of methods (or documentation) make it harder if not impossible to work with.

 

[Zegangani]

This is pure conjecture. The vast majority of the Civ 6 playerbase doesn't use mods, and none of the new platforms Civ 6 is available on support modding.

That doesn't prove that FXS wouldn't make a lot of Money with Players who would buy the Game/DLCs just because of DLL Mods. The majority of Players don't use Mods, that's for sure. But even now, players are buying CiV just because of Vox Populi. Release the DLL and Modders start making something great from it, and watch how many non-Mod users will change their Minds.

Again, pure conjecture and hearsay. I've never read anyone say that here or on Reddit - all we can do is say "nuh uh" to each other here, but given my first point about how modders are a minority of players, I fail to see how releasing the DLL does anything significant to boost sales or otherwise give profit to Firaxis.

are we in a Court now? Libel. denying something that you haven't seen, doesn't make it Untruth.

Again, pure conjecture. You're taking something that hasn't happened and speaking about an outcome as if it's set in stone.

Again, libel. We have a Precedent: Look at the Elder Scrolls V Skyrim as an example.

How about this: "mods making use of the DLL will be unbalanced fan ideas, poorly optimized, crash-prone, and break MP with constant desyncs." Neither one of us can disprove the other here.

That's the EXACT case with NFP (except with crashes and MP desyncs). But my initial Wording was "great Mods from Modders (especially those that depend on the DLL)", I didn't say all.

Again, I disagree with your premise here. Yes, modders have the luxury of being completely independent and free to update their mods whenever they want (but they don't have to and often won't; many mods are abandoned), but I don't find many mods balanced very well at all.

Objection, I said they are more likely to, and many Modders do fix/balance Mods of other Modders that don't do that. Nevertheless, they can easily be rebalanced/fixed by anyone who wants to, after all they are Mods. But can we do that with hardcoded stuff like Monopolies/Heroes/WC/Diplomacy/Unit Pathfinding...etc?

This is all individual taste. The most "realistic" game mode (Corporations & Monopolies) is by far my least favorite one. I find it boring and in its current state it's just broken. But stuff like Apocalypse Mode, Shuffle, Heroes, and Secret Societies? Sign me up! These have added a ton of fun and whimsy to the game to me.

So one can decide for him/her-self if Secret Societies is a realistic or a fantasy Mode? individual Taste is How and IF you like the Modes. They are just simple Modes that add little to the actual Gamplay (just huge Yield amounts and stronger Units). One doesn't have to like the Modes or not to see this.

To clarify:
I'm not saying Mods that make use of DLL are better than official Game content. But they enhance the Gameplay, add more depth to it and a lot make the game more Challenging and Fun to play with. I enjoy Many Civ VI Mods over the Game Modes.
I played the Game so often, that the simple Mechanisms don't cut it for me anymore. I need more depth, more Challenge and New Mechanisms and Systems to find my Joy in the Game again. With every Game, the Flaws and no interconnectedness of the Mechanisms come more and more to the fore, that I can't enjoy it anymore. The only salvation is a release of DLL. New Units, Buildings, CSs..etc can't change anything about that.

I understand why People would prefer official Content over Mods. But I cant get why a lot dislike Mods just because they are unofficial (I won't accept Balance as the reason, The Game isn't balanced since the release of it). I could bet that they never used a single QoL Mod or just used to subscribe to poorly modded ones to see the difference between the regular Game and one with good Mods.

 

[AntSou]

Release the DLL and Modders start making something great from it, and watch how many non-Mod users will change their Minds.

You're assuming our experience is that of the average player. The only people who even know what DLL is in the context of Civ are those who already frequent these forums, reddit, and other forums.

I think the bottom line is: Modding extends the game's lifespan for players who already play or have played Civ. It will hardly bring meaningful numbers of new players in. But extending a game's lifespan might not even be desirable from 2K's perspective. This is the same company releasing a new NBA2K title every year.

 

[TreVor_ish]

The state of World Builder alone (and lack of any update, for how long now? more than a year?) shows how much into modding capabilities was invested in a past year.
Even without full dll released, things like a proper documentation or AI dll are absolutely crucial to make any bigger mod (that can be playable beyond players amusement).

 

[Lokreah]

Articles out there saying the rebalance will be "the biggest community change yet".

Woot woot.

 

[Myomoto]

I'm going to throw out a wild idea. What if Civ 7 is a standalone expansion to Civ 6? Basically you get new gameplay rules, but import all the gameplay content of 6 (leaders/Civs). It's been working remarkably well for the Total Warhammer games...

 

[Zegangani]

You're assuming our experience is that of the average player. The only people who even know what DLL is in the context of Civ are those who already frequent these forums, reddit, and other forums.

I think the bottom line is: Modding extends the game's lifespan for players who already play or have played Civ. It will hardly bring meaningful numbers of new players in. But extending a game's lifespan might not even be desirable from 2K's perspective. This is the same company releasing a new NBA2K title every year.

I didn't mean CivFantics (who know the Game in and out), but the average Civ Players. People that aren't old Fans of a Franchise tend to read Articles about a Game, Watch Youtube Videos of a Game's Gameplay Trailer and/or Youtubers who review the Game before they buy it. And both, Arcticle writers and Youtubers do use Mods, and if there is a DLL modded game, they are very likely to convince non-Modders of the Great Gameplay that a Mod bring to that Game.
So it's not like if there is a Good DLL Mod ala Vox Populi for Civ VI alone would make non-Mod users will use this Mod, but the Free Adds that Articles, Videos, Forums...etc make would hype this Mod and encourage many Players to try it out. (I used to watch a TV-Show that made Game reviews, the moderators somtimes advised to use certain Mods for some games)

But yeah, it would be just a small amount of new Players compared to the New Players that buy the game at its release. But, a good source of Money would it be regardless.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm going to throw out a wild idea. What if Civ 7 is a standalone expansion to Civ 6? Basically you get new gameplay rules, but import all the gameplay content of 6 (leaders/Civs). It's been working remarkably well for the Total Warhammer games...

Good grief, I hope not. Civ7 needs a fresh start in order to make a coherent game.

 

[Zegangani]

I'm going to throw out a wild idea. What if Civ 7 is a standalone expansion to Civ 6? Basically you get new gameplay rules, but import all the gameplay content of 6 (leaders/Civs). It's been working remarkably well for the Total Warhammer games...

As much as I would welcome something like that, it would be really challenging for the Dev Team to make New Mechanisms/Systemes that would need a proper rework of everything. A fresh start would be much reasonable and easier to plan. Also, I think Civ VI's Engine has reached it's limit by now (Larger Maps crash the Game, Heavy Asset Mods bring Glitches and CTD...etc). I don't think Civ VI would handle more content.

We need a New Game with a brand new and solid Engine. We need better Maps (better Graphics (including Units, Buildings...etc), variety in terrain and Feature Types...etc), Better Diplomacy, revised UI...etc. All this can't be achieved with Civ VI's Engine.
But I would love if they take the Best things from Civ VI, revise them and include them into Civ7:
- Districts and their respective Buildings,
- CS/Barbarian Clans Diplomacy (including the conversion to CSs/Civs),
- Natural Desasters (would like to see them take just one Turn but are more impactful),
- Better implemented Loyalty Systeme and RnF of Civs (maybe as the something new that Civ 7 could bring: Evolving Civs, like from Rome to Italian League to Modern Italy. Would love that),
- Stockable Strategic ressources,
- Energy Systeme,
- Housing (+ a new Health Systeme)
- Policy Cards
- Governors
- ...etc

Yeah there are plenty of good Content in Civ VI, it would be a lost of opportunity to not inlude those.

 

[sonicmyst]

TL;DR What Firaxis said about NFP

https://www.pcgamesn.com/civilization-vi/new-frontier-pass-sales-player-count

 

[Kaan Boztepe]

According to the article linked above , most active users since launch , with everyone stuck at home not unexpected. In addition they sold good enough to meet targets which is less than what you would want in hindsight with again pandemic and video games being in high demand. Also they still dont talk about future plans which is interesting.

 

[Gedemon]

You're assuming our experience is that of the average player. The only people who even know what DLL is in the context of Civ are those who already frequent these forums, reddit, and other forums.

I think the bottom line is: Modding extends the game's lifespan for players who already play or have played Civ. It will hardly bring meaningful numbers of new players in. But extending a game's lifespan might not even be desirable from 2K's perspective. This is the same company releasing a new NBA2K title every year.

Same thing can be said of Lua (not the Leader Unique Ability, but the scripting langage) and SQL or DB requests, I mean you don't need to know what's in a mod's folder to be able to use the mod, especially thanks to Steam.

All the people asking on various forum "Can we have Vox Populi for civ6 ?" obviously don't know what "DLL is in the context of civ", yet they use it (and would like to use it on civ6, even without knowing what it is)

The number of players that buy or don't buy a game because of modding is not something we can easily determine on our side, but I just know it's a big incentive for me, not as a modder, but also as a player, I wouldn't buy any Bethesda game if they weren't moddable for example.

 

[Abaxial]

I think a spin-off game would make sense; but not Beyond Earth II, please. I have a friend who plays a lot of BE and can't relate to Civ 6, whereas I am the reverse. For me, a SF planet-based 4X game just makes no sense. How can you have all that technology and not know the basic geography of your planet? What WOULD make sense is a fantasy 4X game using the Civ 6 engine, and it seems the devs would love to work on this - they could have zombies and vampires to their hearts' content. It would be way better than Endless Legend and probably very successful.

 

[PiR]

I'm not into BE but I didn't give it a fair try. But, as you asked a question :

How can you have all that technology and not know the basic geography of your planet?

Maybe you just crashlanded without setting up a network of satellite? Or the aliens are blurring your sensors?
BTW, exploration is just one part of civ.

 

[Abaxial]

BTW, exploration is just one part of civ.

It's 1/4 of a 4X game. The first "X".