What am I doing wrong on Immortal level?

[AJL.]

Hi all,

I'm playing a standard continents map, with 6 civs and 8 CS, and trying for a science vic. I'm playing the Shoshone and have quit about 4 games in a row now because I can see the situation is futile. In the last game I was just researching my first Ren tech and someone COMPLETED P.Tower!

I've just started playing Immortal and on Emperor I won in several ways by following pretty much the same starting strategy of getting 3 cities really pumping (sometimes just 2 if I already have a coastal one) before doing anything else. I went full tradition first with the exception of opening the honour tree to get the early culture bonuses from killing barbs (very helpful). On Emperor I could get several early wonders but on Immortal I only go for is M.Helicarnassus and, maybe, Oracle for the scientist point and extra policy. Since I'm going for a sic vic, I get libraries built or bought as fast as I can and get NC before building my third city (before T100 is the idea).

Basically, this is how I get going and I'm failing epically. Most of the other civs are more advanced than me and there's usually one that is miles ahead and I just don't get how! All vics become impossible because I'm too far behind.

I would love it if you guys could give me some advice because this is getting really frustrating! So, thanks in advance

 

[Ryika]

with the exception of opening the honour tree to get the early culture bonuses from killing barbs (very helpful).

Nope, not helpful at all. You invest in an additional policy, so everything comes later than it would normally come. You can counter that in the early phase of the game, but you'll actually lose culture towards the next policy later on. (On normal speed at least)

M.Helicarnassus

I'd personally skip that one, it's just too early and will delay more important buildings.

Oracle for the scientist point and extra policy.

Oracle should be a top-priority-wonder, it's very strong and relatively easy to get.

Since I'm going for a sic vic, I get libraries built or bought as fast as I can and get NC before building my third city (before T100 is the idea).

You should be able to get your 3 cities before the NC AND get the NC before turn 100. The problem might be the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, or your build order is really strange.

Basically, this is how I get going and I'm failing epically. Most of the other civs are more advanced than me and there's usually one that is miles ahead and I just don't get how! All vics become impossible because I'm too far behind.

Well, food and science. Your cities are probably not big enough. Try to farm all river tiles before you research civil service and grow the hell out of your cities. (I think I just invented that phrase.)

For more specific information, screenshots or even a savegame would be very useful.

 

[AJL.]

Thanks for your advice Ryika.
So, I'll scrap MH (but that gold comes in really handy!) and make a beeline for the Oracle. So, then it's C.Service & Education. How would you continue from there in order to get P.Tower and still have the army you need to protect yourself?

 

[Acken]

First, you should provide screenshot (or video) so it's easier to give you benchmarks on how well you're doing in a specific game.

Based on your write up:
-Do not open honor just for the culture. Unless maybe you play with raging barbarians. It's often a bad idea to use a social policy only to get more culture due to exponential costs.
-Hallicarnassus is bad for science as you wont expand that many GP and a good one for Culture. But I would not spend too much time on it. Get it only if you have nothing else urgent. But at immortal it often means you will have to skip it... Prioritize only if you have a good amount of stone/marble or if there are interesting CS quest that ask for it. Oracle is indeed often better.

 

[dragonxxx]

and I don't understand how you can quit games because you do not get pisa ... I am not even trying for it 90% of the time ...

 

[notyourtypical]

The key to immortal is learning how to grow your cities. You can't have size 8-12 cities in the late renaissance and expect to compete. The key is making sure you work food tiles (at the expense of early production, unless you need to push out a building real fast) and grow into production. Food trade routes are excellent for getting an empire up quickly. You can make gold by selling luxuries at 7gpt and horses and iron for 2gpt each, if you sell them one by one.

Your cities should build food buildings first (granary, water mill, lighthouse, trade routes), production second (stables, stone works, workshop) and happiness third, unless you are going to be unhappy shortly. Build science buildings as they become available. If your cities are as big as possible, say 15+ pop capital and 10 pop satellites around turn 120, you'll have a good base for the rest of the game, and you won't find yourself having too much in your build queues. Plus, figure your capital is -6 population for university and guilds, and your secondary cities are going to be -2.

 

[notyourtypical]

Also, steal workers. You can get a city state one around turn 15-20, depending on their terrain. You can also declare on an AI neighbor or two. If you use a warrior and a scout, you can very often get two workers or a worker/settler combo from the AI around turn 20. This will help you get your cities up and running quickly. Improve luxuries me strategics first for gpt, then put farms on any tile that will give 3 food.

 

[AJL.]

Thanks notyourtypical. I guess I haven't been prioritising my builds correctly. I'm going to start again and see how i do.
dragonxxx: I wasn't talking about Pisa, but the Porcelain Tower

 

[danaphanous]

Porcelain Tower! That makes more sense! Pisa is useful but shouldn't be a game-breaking priority. I usually lose Pisa because I'm shooting for Sistine Chapel and Porcelain tower and I also play immortal.

I don't think it's awful if you aren't caught up by Renaissance, but it does seem you are a bit behind. Have you tried using some trade routes for shipping food to your capital instead of gold? I know gold is short early, but early growth is the key to science, the faster you grow and put out those early 2nd, 3rd, and 4th cities the better you do at catching up. The cities actually probably make a bigger difference then National College as long as it isn't delayed too long. If I were you, I would put out my 3rd city instead of stopping for NC and hurry the library with gold I had in reserve--then immediately do NC. Then, at least, your third city is founded and growing. You can lose a lot of potential by getting your 3rd and 4th cities out late. If you are staying small too late that would be the biggest problem. You should always have enough happiness to keep 4 cities growing steadily, and should probably get food routes going early. At minimum, 1 to help out your capital. Probably 2 if you can afford it. This is the beauty of coastal starts as ship routes are doubled, but with Shoshone that would be unlikely.

Do you play wide or small? Shoshone are actually better geared toward going wide due to their extra hex borders upon founding. You don't have to wait to expand to get most of the critical resources so that frees up a lot of gold. It's Also easy to lock down extra luxes with the ability quickly, and thus bring in that extra happiness quite fast.

 

[AJL.]

Hey danaphanous! Thanks a lot!
Yes, I'm using trade routes to send food to other cities rather than to civs/CSs. I try to play wide - sometimes I'm forced into building a city closer than I'd like to another because of the kind of continent I'm on or because I have a neighbour too close. I'm playing continents because I think it's a bit more interesting & difficult.
I quit when I saw another civ had completed P.Tower because that meant they were about to enter Industrial and I was only just in Ren. That's a big gap.
I started a new game following earlier advice (food buildings all the way first & getting cities growing) but had Russia & Rome for neighbours. First Russia attacked and I managed to fend her off but not long after Rome attacked and they took my second largest and second most productive city (I had 3, well spaced cities).
And this is the kind of problem I'm having. If I focus on food my, army is not as strong and someone attacks hard. If I try for a strong army, I fall way behind in other areas. I really don't know why I'm failing so miserably. Emperor level seems a walk in the park after Immortal!

 

[Uzael36]

After you get your cities up and running, you will want to build some defenders to fend off your neighbors. If you have near average sized military strength, it is rare people will attack you without being provoked.

Since your capital often has a lot of responsibilities, I often build my military support in my 2nd city after I finish building the library. If my capital gets ahead of the tech I'm waiting for, I'll build some military support before building markets, temple and amphitheaters.

Just remember, you cannot build everything, but you do have to prioritize some military before all the nearby land is taken up. Once your neighbors can't settle new places, they'll pick you off if your military looks extremely weak.

 

[AJL.]

Hey Uzael36, I get what you're saying except for one thing: "...if my capital gets ahead of the tech I'm waiting for...". What do you mean by that?

That defenders/building problem seems to be my main one. I can't seem to get the balance on this level. As you say, you can't build everything, but if I prioritise an army, I fall behind in tech (the tech towards a sci vic) and if I prioritise tech (going towards M.Men), my army is weak. That's exactly what just happened to me with Russia and Rome. I managed to fend Russia off with pikemen against m.men but Rome attacked so soon after and with lots of units. I had no chance.

I know I keep saying it, but, what am I doing wrong?!

 

[AJL.]

By the way, I use the Shoshone pathfinder advantages to boost culture, population and tech and I'm still behind! So, is the program set up to negate the advantages that this civ is supposed to provide me?

 

[Uzael36]

Hey Uzael36, I get what you're saying except for one thing: "...if my capital gets ahead of the tech I'm waiting for...". What do you mean by that?

That defenders/building problem seems to be my main one. I can't seem to get the balance on this level. As you say, you can't build everything, but if I prioritise an army, I fall behind in tech (the tech towards a sci vic) and if I prioritise tech (going towards M.Men), my army is weak. That's exactly what just happened to me with Russia and Rome. I managed to fend Russia off with pikemen against m.men but Rome attacked so soon after and with lots of units. I had no chance.

I know I keep saying it, but, what am I doing wrong?!

What I mean is that if you've build your settlers, have your granary and caravans going and waiting on education, that is when you build a few archers. Don't worry about going after the military techs, but utilize what you have. A few archers and pikemen can go a like way to fend off your neighbors desire to come at you. Things like market, watermill, amphitheater can wait until after you shore up your defense a little, and it doesn't all have to be built in the capital. My 2nd city often has time to build a unit or 2 as well, before needing to build a university. And you don't have to build a lot of units, just enough to keep their desire to attack you at bay.

 

[Uzael36]

By the way, I use the Shoshone pathfinder advantages to boost culture, population and tech and I'm still behind! So, is the program set up to negate the advantages that this civ is supposed to provide me?

They just get big advantages at the start. On anything but Babylon, you will most likely still be behind when you first enter the Renaissance, but you will catch up and pass them soon after if played well.

 

[qemist]

Settle next to mountains, build libaries, universities and observatories asap, use internal trade routes (sea if possible). Try to keep the AIs fighting each other.

 

[reddishrecue]

One thing about Pocatello I that he says he is chief Pocatello which I think he wasn't made to be played on the more difficult levels but rather be used in the chieftain level. You could get a good victory off of that level without much worries.

 

[notyourtypical]

One thing about Pocatello I that he says he is chief Pocatello which I think he wasn't made to be played on the more difficult levels but rather be used in the chieftain level. You could get a good victory off of that level without much worries.

?????

 

[Dirkschneider]

One thing about Pocatello I that he says he is chief Pocatello which I think he wasn't made to be played on the more difficult levels but rather be used in the chieftain level. You could get a good victory off of that level without much worries.

^This is true, it's the same with every leader.

 

[Memoryjar]

In immortal, you have to win before T375/400. So, don't give up T150/160.

With practice, you'll be able to have 4 city NC under T95, sometimes under T85.

If Porcelain Tower fall before you enter in renaissance era, it's not important if you are 2nd to 4th in literacy in demographics (F9 key). If at that point you are 6th. There's a problem in your gameplay.

Prioritize food over production. Your problem shouldn't be science, but happiness. If not, you're going in the wrong way.