What are reputation hits for razing lots of AI cities and how it all work?

[FinsT]

Hi.

In many of my games, i end up razing lots of AI cities (dozens and dozens). However, i do not capture their capitals (sometimes city-state ally take their capital, but usually not). End result is, i have a bunch of civilizations which are very, very angry at me.

Of course, i can live with it because they are so reduced, slowed and ruined that they never catch up to me. In practice, i don't need them to like me. But, it could possibly be interesting to try just for the sake of it.

So, let's say, my current game, there is Inca on the same landmass, to whom i declared war, with a goal to (eventually) raze all his cities except capital - and he has 10+ cities, most of them very small (at the moment), - then make peace with him and let him be. What i'd like to know - is:
- what is the hit to his "opinion" about me for razing a city of his? 20? 30? Or there is no such thing - only warmonger?
- how me being "warmonger" effects his opinion? Probably depends if a civ hates warmongers or tolerates them? What the hit if they hate it? 30?
- does it stack in any way for razing multiple cities? Perhaps the penalty remains for longer than otherwise? Or is it piling up to larger and larger penalty to his opinion about me?

P.S. What i noticed in one of recent games - is that qiuck early war which i declared did not result in very lasting "warmonger" status for me from the victim civ (Arabs), despite the fact i razed one of his small cities which he placed near my territory; however, England treated me as a warmonger for much longer than Arabs themselves did. Straaaange. %)

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Capturing a city incurs a warmonger penalty, what you do with it is irrelevant

 

[FinsT]

Ok. Does that warmongering penalty accumulate? Say, if i capture 1 city, getting +X hit to AI's "opinion" about me, - then what happens when i capture 2nd city? Will i be having 2X total penalty from warmongering?

I suspect i would.

Then, can this go on endlessly, or is there a cap? In other words, if i capture (raze, whatever) 30 cities - will i be having 30X penalty to (pretty much every) AI's opinion about me?

Also, i get conflicting data on decaying of warmongering penalty. Some say it stays for good. Some say it's just stays for "long", but eventually disappears. My personal experience hints to this, though: when i repeatedly reject peace offers, then i am listed as a warmonger at all or nearly all AIs for extremely long time, - possibly "forever", not sure; but, if i accept very 1st peace offer an AI makes after we went to war (which they do quite soon, being beaten by my army - usually, that is), - then warmonger penalty disappears after several dozens turns (if not "few" dozens turns, even).

If there's any code about mechanics of warmongering which you could put here - i'd be very grateful.

 

[BlackWizard]

There is four different level of warmonger penalty: minor, major,sever and extreme. If civilization has lots of cities and you take one of them you get minor penalty even if that city is their capital. If you take their only or last city you will get extreme penalty. Conquering city states will always give you extreme warmonger penalty. If you liberate cities it lowers you warmonger penalty.

 

[FinsT]

I see. The last sentence is the most interesting, though. It can be, uh, "implemented", for the lack of better word... Ok, "exploited", if you insist. Anyhows, quite obviously:
1. Agree with an AI's proposition to DoW another AI together (or have an AI to agree to such a proposal myself);
2. Attack and raze some of AI's cities - ones i want to see gone (say, for my borders to grow more).
3. Attack, but do not capture, some other AI's cities, instead killing all hostile units around and keeping them at 0 health for as long as it is needed for my AI ally to capture them;
4. DoP;
5. DoW my AI ally;
6. Liberate cities which were taken by my former AI ally;
7. Profit: 1st AI (initial victim) does not have a Warmonger penalty on me (given few enough cities razed and many enough liberated).
added bonus: 1st AI now has seriously large Warmonger towards AI #2. Can be useful in relations later, eh.

Huh? Would this really work? =)

Note, AI #1 (initial victim) can be a neighbour, and AI #2 (initial ally) can be a far-away one - one who can see me as a warmonger for all eternity, because without common borders, terrain he'd want to get from me, and (later in a game) likelyhood to pick remote civ which is of same ideology with me, - even big warmonger penalty would probably not lead to massively spoiled relations. Especially if he tolerates warmongers.

I should do this in one of my games and see how it goes. Very curious now.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

The diplo damage is proportional to:
the inverse of the total number of cities on the map
the ratio of how many cities you have / how many cities he has
the ratio of how much the AI in question likes him / how much it likes you

cut in half for any AI also at war with your enemy
multiplied by warmonger hate flavor

 

[King Jason]

I see. The last sentence is the most interesting, though. It can be, uh, "implemented", for the lack of better word... Ok, "exploited", if you insist. Anyhows, quite obviously:
1. Agree with an AI's proposition to DoW another AI together (or have an AI to agree to such a proposal myself);
2. Attack and raze some of AI's cities - ones i want to see gone (say, for my borders to grow more).
3. Attack, but do not capture, some other AI's cities, instead killing all hostile units around and keeping them at 0 health for as long as it is needed for my AI ally to capture them;
4. DoP;
5. DoW my AI ally;
6. Liberate cities which were taken by my former AI ally;
7. Profit: 1st AI (initial victim) does not have a Warmonger penalty on me (given few enough cities razed and many enough liberated).
added bonus: 1st AI now has seriously large Warmonger towards AI #2. Can be useful in relations later, eh.

Huh? Would this really work? =)

Note, AI #1 (initial victim) can be a neighbour, and AI #2 (initial ally) can be a far-away one - one who can see me as a warmonger for all eternity, because without common borders, terrain he'd want to get from me, and (later in a game) likelyhood to pick remote civ which is of same ideology with me, - even big warmonger penalty would probably not lead to massively spoiled relations. Especially if he tolerates warmongers.

I should do this in one of my games and see how it goes. Very curious now.

I've never quite clarified if taking cities via peace-deals affects the warmonger status - but if it doesn't, you may do all of this quicker by just heading strait to your opponents capital and capturing it. If you do that, destroying their military along the way and taking perhaps another city or two - I've found they'll ransom most of their empire for their capital back.

I just fought a war with Greece, they had 8 cities - I captured 2; Corinth and Athens. I sued for peace and got all but there new capital, leave them with 2 cities. Click the raze button = no more Greek threat.

But, like I said - I've never looked into/noticed if taking a city in a peace deal contributes to warmonger hate - as I generally don't care what the world thinks of me.

 

[ravenmagus]

I see. The last sentence is the most interesting, though. It can be, uh, "implemented", for the lack of better word... Ok, "exploited", if you insist. Anyhows, quite obviously:
1. Agree with an AI's proposition to DoW another AI together (or have an AI to agree to such a proposal myself);
2. Attack and raze some of AI's cities - ones i want to see gone (say, for my borders to grow more).
3. Attack, but do not capture, some other AI's cities, instead killing all hostile units around and keeping them at 0 health for as long as it is needed for my AI ally to capture them;
4. DoP;
5. DoW my AI ally;
6. Liberate cities which were taken by my former AI ally;
7. Profit: 1st AI (initial victim) does not have a Warmonger penalty on me (given few enough cities razed and many enough liberated).
added bonus: 1st AI now has seriously large Warmonger towards AI #2. Can be useful in relations later, eh.

Huh? Would this really work? =)

Note, AI #1 (initial victim) can be a neighbour, and AI #2 (initial ally) can be a far-away one - one who can see me as a warmonger for all eternity, because without common borders, terrain he'd want to get from me, and (later in a game) likelyhood to pick remote civ which is of same ideology with me, - even big warmonger penalty would probably not lead to massively spoiled relations. Especially if he tolerates warmongers.

I should do this in one of my games and see how it goes. Very curious now.

The easiest way to do this really is to find a city-state next to the AI you dislike, ally with them, and then go to war with the AI. Your city-state friend will join you in the war, and the AI will likely go after them (due to it being a nearby enemy city). You can get into a good war over the city-state and have the AI take it multiple times while you liberate it (but don't actually defend it well); the rest of the world will forget about any past warmongering you've done and everyone will absolutely hate the disgusting, evil city-state killing madman you went to war against.

 

[Plumfairy]

I've never quite clarified if taking cities via peace-deals affects the warmonger status

Cities obtained from peace deals do not affect your warmonger status.

*Exception: I'm pretty sure that if you choose to liberate a peace-deal city, it helps reduce your warmonger level. But keeping them (or razing them) doesn't negatively affect your warmonger level.

 

[King Jason]

So in that case - just beeline for someone's capital and/or major cities and when the war is concluded, swap them for the rest of their empire.

You get the added benefit of keeping all the pop and buildings.