What are the worst game mechanics in Civ4 and how could they be fixed?

[livinginaz]

Hey, livingingaz! You and I need to link up for another 1000AD Monarch (or higher!) game sometime!

It could be very interesting to start with someone new, another challenge for me as I haven't gotten the chance to play any Civ IV (or any Civ at all for that matter) since that last game, but it can definitely be done. The downsides to being busy. Part of me has always wanted to try the Incans in this game, as they are severely handicapped in multiple ways. a bit OT but yeah.

 

[NickGabben]

Another thing that bugs me is that when you want to trigger a golden age with multiple great people (let's say two), the game ignores your selection and picks any two GPs that are on the tile. So, if you have a merchant, a scientist and an artist, and select the scientist and artist as triggers, it might very well be that the game uses the merchant and one of the others and leaves you with the artist (of course!). It's possible to avoid this by moving the two you want to use to a separate tile, but if you had to move one of them to reach the others, it could be that it runs out of movement by taking the final step and then the GA can't be triggered until the next turn.

Generally, the stack management can be quite exhausting and it can take a while to select the units you want...

 

[Plains-Cow]

It could be very interesting to start with someone new, another challenge for me as I haven't gotten the chance to play any Civ IV (or any Civ at all for that matter) since that last game, but it can definitely be done. The downsides to being busy. Part of me has always wanted to try the Incans in this game, as they are severely handicapped in multiple ways. a bit OT but yeah.

I haven't been playing too much, either, but I've been having a lot of fun watching Sullla's AI survivor. You can hit me up over PM to talk more about setting up another game. Just like before, it can be "update at your own pace" rather than anything strict (it is a GAME after all). I think playing as the natives of America would be SUPER hard. I'm not even sure how one would win when the AI would be tech trading with one another so by the time you even meet them, they don't want anything from you at all.

 

[floydmcw]

Generally, the stack management can be quite exhausting and it can take a while to select the units you want...

I don't mind dealing with one stack, but dealing with stacks in vertically adjacent tiles is hell.

 

[MassRiflemen]

barb gallies

pre industrial ai navy spam

notice how similar those two things are

I have zero shame in spawning a couple of bronze age 40 strength battleships to afk on my seafood for 500 turns until I have combustion and factory in at least two coastal cities.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Third, the chance for a reactor to melt down is absurdly high and makes them almost useless. Often times I don't even realize it's happened until there's fallout around my cities. I think this can be lowered with some modding but I can't believe they never addressed this. Nuclear power is nowhere near as unreliable as the game makes it seem, it's laughable.

I have newer had a meltdown happen to me ever. Doesn't the city have to be rioting or something for it to happen?

 

[Plains-Cow]

I have newer had a meltdown happen to me ever. Doesn't the city have to be rioting or something for it to happen?

No. It's just a random% every turn.

 

[NickGabben]

I think lumbermills on the inside of river bends should have two commerce, considering the one diagonally across (on the outside of the bend) has none and a normal mill has one. I know LMs are frowned upon here on the forum, but I like them and forests protect the underlying terrain against global warming (i.e., on a tile with a grassland forest, when global warming strikes, only the forest is removed but the tile remains grassland and doesn't turn to desert immediately).

 

[Plains-Cow]

I think lumbermills on the inside of river bends should have two commerce, considering the one diagonally across (on the outside of the bend) has none and a normal mill has one. I know LMs are frowned upon here on the forum, but I like them and forests protect the underlying terrain against global warming (i.e., on a tile with a grassland forest, when global warming strikes, only the forest is removed but the tile remains grassland and doesn't turn to desert immediately).

IDK if I've ever played a game with the idea of it lasting until global warming, therefore making forest preservation pointless. What difficulties do you play on?

 

[NickGabben]

I play immortal, but I usually keep playing my games after I've won, just to go to space anyway. That means that I've won sometime around 1300-1600 AD (usually - there are exceptions, of course and abandoned games, too) and then I keep going to see how quickly I can leave the rest behind on desert Earth. I think my best is a launch at 1498, but then I'd had land exceeding the domination limit for quite a while. And to really waste my time, it's not uncommon for me to continue even longer to see how much land I can culture flip with Sid Sushi and 100 % slider. At some point even I have had enough and start over again, though.

 

[MassRiflemen]

I play immortal, but I usually keep playing my games after I've won, just to go to space anyway. That means that I've won sometime around 1300-1600 AD (usually - there are exceptions, of course and abandoned games, too) and then I keep going to see how quickly I can leave the rest behind on desert Earth. I think my best is a launch at 1498, but then I'd had land exceeding the domination limit for quite a while. And to really waste my time, it's not uncommon for me to continue even longer to see how much land I can culture flip with Sid Sushi and 100 % slider. At some point even I have had enough and start over again, though.

In Kmod you can make lumbermills with guilds. Serfdom also gives +1 gold on farms. Those two things are the main reasons i play it.

In kmod global warming melts the ice before turning things into desert and religion spreads very slow (and the ais don't rush to meditation or polytheism, allowing you to make religion a playstyle), combined with a better AI and optimized code.

 

[NickGabben]

If you don't have open borders with a neighbour, they shouldn't be able to spread irrigation from my farms, in my opinion.

 

[need my speed]

If you don't have open borders with a neighbour, they shouldn't be able to spread irrigation from my farms, in my opinion.

From a game mechanic point, I actually like this idea.

 

[NickGabben]

And another thing: It's a bit strange that a civ with construction can cross rivers at will in other civs' territories where they don't know how to build bridges yet. (And obviously the other way around as well. If the other civ knows construction and you don't, you can't use their bridges. "What is this black magic, a road across water?? Let's not risk it and wade through on the side anyway, just like we do at home. Don't worry - it'll only take us 25 years.")

 

[Quintillus]

The vassal system is definitely the top one for me. I always turn it off.

It's a way to accelerate the tendency of a few civs to dominate. Fewer (free) civs doesn't make the game more fun. And the "enemy you are fighting vassalizes itself to someone else" mechanic is the worst part of it, for reasons already covered. In Civ III, they could sign another civ into an alliance to help them against you, or sign a mutual protection pact with someone - usually tough to do if a war was already going on - and that could spoil your plans. But not to the same extent that them becoming a vassal of someone else does. If they brought an alliance in III, you could peace them out so you could focus on the new enemy. If it was a mutual protection pact, wait 20 turns for it to expire, make peace with both. But vassalizing is essentially forever.

That there's no warning of it is also part of what makes it so frustrating. More fun just to turn it off.

How could it be fixed? In EU4, you can't diplo-vassalize yourself if you are at war. There also must be a much larger differential in size than there is in Civ4. As a result, I have no complaints with vassalage in EU4.

Spy Specialists being auto-assigned is also annoying, and I sometimes turn espionage off - it's probably the second-weakest system in the game, IMO. Courthouses are too good to not build due to their maintenance reduction, but I'd rather nor have a chance of my great person being a Great Spy, all the other ones are much preferable. This could be fixed by having a button in the city UI to prevent certain types of great people from being auto-assigned.

The force civics is also one I'm not a big fan of. In part because it's always the last-tier civics. What if you had a bunch of Communist powers who wanted State Property to be a global civic? Or capitalists who wanted Free Market? It's just kind of boring having all the civics wind up the same at the end, and the last-tier ones aren't always even the ones that make the most sense for the map. For that matter, instead of "global civic", it might also be more fun to simply have "forbidden civic". Forbid Slavery, and any nation that uses it is an outlaw and has the outlaw penalty. But you could still choose the other four options without a penalty.

 

[floydmcw]

I really hate missionary / executive spread failures. It really messes up your plans if you're depending on the religion culture to pop borders.

And it's always annoying. How many times has this happened to you:

T0: Get the tech or GP you need for say Mining Inc. Start an exec.
T1: Whip the exec
T2: Move the exec to a nearby high-hammer city, to spread that corp while the headquarters works on Wall St.
T3: Exec fails to spread MI, , switch HQ to another exec.
T4: No I am not stacking whip anger.
...

 

[jnebbe]

The vassal system is definitely the top one for me. I always turn it off.

It's a way to accelerate the tendency of a few civs to dominate. Fewer (free) civs doesn't make the game more fun. And the "enemy you are fighting vassalizes itself to someone else" mechanic is the worst part of it, for reasons already covered. In Civ III, they could sign another civ into an alliance to help them against you, or sign a mutual protection pact with someone - usually tough to do if a war was already going on - and that could spoil your plans. But not to the same extent that them becoming a vassal of someone else does. If they brought an alliance in III, you could peace them out so you could focus on the new enemy. If it was a mutual protection pact, wait 20 turns for it to expire, make peace with both. But vassalizing is essentially forever.

That there's no warning of it is also part of what makes it so frustrating. More fun just to turn it off.

How could it be fixed? In EU4, you can't diplo-vassalize yourself if you are at war. There also must be a much larger differential in size than there is in Civ4. As a result, I have no complaints with vassalage in EU4.

Spy Specialists being auto-assigned is also annoying, and I sometimes turn espionage off - it's probably the second-weakest system in the game, IMO. Courthouses are too good to not build due to their maintenance reduction, but I'd rather nor have a chance of my great person being a Great Spy, all the other ones are much preferable. This could be fixed by having a button in the city UI to prevent certain types of great people from being auto-assigned.

The force civics is also one I'm not a big fan of. In part because it's always the last-tier civics. What if you had a bunch of Communist powers who wanted State Property to be a global civic? Or capitalists who wanted Free Market? It's just kind of boring having all the civics wind up the same at the end, and the last-tier ones aren't always even the ones that make the most sense for the map. For that matter, instead of "global civic", it might also be more fun to simply have "forbidden civic". Forbid Slavery, and any nation that uses it is an outlaw and has the outlaw penalty. But you could still choose the other four options without a penalty.

heh yeah they always want you to switch to environmentalism. I actually had to look up what it does and holy cow is it terrible. I can't possibly imagine a scenario where it'd be the best eco civic. In some cases you probably just straight up lose the game if your forced into that.

 

[noto2]

After putting Civ 4 down for almost a decade, I picked it back up again. It's still an amazing game and I still think it's the best of the series, but many of its concepts are very dated. For example, I find it strange and un-fun that you can have a massive army near a city and your opponent can waltz a single warrior into that city and instantly raze it. Your army could be one tile away and it doesn't matter. Compare that to a game like Endless Legend where any combat that occurs will involve armies within about a 4 tile radius. I'm all for the whole strategic play and maneuver warfare and forking and all that, but it feels a little "gamey" in Civ 4. That's a problem that just couldn't be fixed without drastically changing the game, though.

As for things that could be easily fixed with modding (I made a mod to do so a long time ago), there are a few.

First of all, slavery is just so boring and un-fun. It's so ludicrously overpowered that it completely determines the game. Civ 4 could realistically be called "slavery simulator". I don't think slavery should be that powerful. The entire game revolves around it and that's no fun, imo. It needs a heavy, heavy nerf. I'd go so far as to cut the hammers per pop in half. I know, it sounds drastic, but even then you'd still use it every game and use it a lot.

Another weird thing is pillaging. All strategy games, whether they're turn based or real time, and especially 4x games with non-military victory conditions, need a defender advantage. If there is no defender advantage, there is no reason to ever do anything other than put all of your resources into the military and focus on that. Without a significant defender advantage, doing anything other than military play is foolish. Defender advantage makes games interesting. It allows players to use different strategies. In civ 4, the defender gets a significant advantage when defending cities (though this can be overcome with siege weapons, which should be slightly nerfed imo), but they get almost no advantage defending their territory. Thanks to pillaging, the whole city defense thing is pointless.
If I were to make a final balance patch for Civ 4 I'd probably remove pillaging altogether. It doesn't need to be in the game. It doesn't really add anything. It's worthless against the AI and its only real function is to make city defence pointless. It's not enough money to do anything for the pillager.

Finally, razing should be changed. Razing was improved in civ 5. In civ 5, razing takes time. The time it takes to raze a city is proportional to the population of the city. That makes sense. A city being instantly razed by a single unit makes no sense and isn't very fun.

 

[Fippy]

Defender advantage exists imo
AIs are not good enuf to make full use of it, but if you try multiplayer..good luck invading with equal quality units, your opponent has a massive logistics advantage as you progress deeper into their culture.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

First of all, slavery is just so boring and un-fun. It's so ludicrously overpowered that it completely determines the game. Civ 4 could realistically be called "slavery simulator". I don't think slavery should be that powerful. The entire game revolves around it and that's no fun, imo. It needs a heavy, heavy nerf. I'd go so far as to cut the hammers per pop in half. I know, it sounds drastic, but even then you'd still use it every game and use it a lot.

Wouldn't that just make it too underpowered? I mean, you are loosing pop so you have to get enough hammers back to make up for the lost production. Honestly I think perhaps a better solution would be to keep it as strong as it is but give it some sort of cooldown to make it a rare use superweapon as opposed to a use every turn superweapon. Like, maybe add a physical cooldown per city, or maybe add a minus to food production to the civic to make regrowing pop more painful.