What level should I be playing at? BTS 3.18

[odin1981]

Hey all! I recently got this game on steam. I have played civ Rev and the original. I have been playing noble first 20-30 or so. But the ai is just too bad. Without even going tech heavy i am able to consistently get into the colonization period by around 1000 ad or so and the computer is still half way into the middle ages.

I prefer to play epic, and large size maps and 13+ civs.

I also want the option to be able to beat the game on any option. But really am not well versed in this edition much. That is probably the most important expectation out of this also. I don't want to be forced into x,y, or z because nothing else works at A level I don't want to do that.

However I do want to feel pushed to be focused in a direction or else I get passed on by though. So no walk in the park like noble has been either.

I would like to thank any and all who respond to this as well .

 

[Seraiel]

There's a big step between Prince and Monarch because on Monarch the AIs start with Archers. I personally see the difficulties like "Settler -> Prince" , "Monarch + EMP + IMP" and "Deity" . I'd recommend trying out Prince for warming up, it can basically be beaten without serious strategy but some knowledge is needed, mine from CIV1 or CIV2 was enough though. For beating Emperor I needed to read several guides which is not easy, because most of the guides that are in the War Academy are outdated, so I'd recommend reading the ones in the Strategy-guides subsection of the S&T forum if you want to step above Prince. I'd directly jump to Emperor then, the difference between Monarch and Emperor isn't so great, once you have beaten Emperor some additional reading is probably required if you want to beat IMM. For IMM I'd recommend posting a game in the S&T forum, the people on this site are generally very friendly and by playing only small sets like 10-20T and then waiting for advice you can get very good and highly specific advice from which you can learn, imo. trying to beat IMM without really diving into the game is a waste, but if you're a serious and skilled player ofc. that is possible, I did that with Deity and needed about 6 months 'til I won my first round of "Deity-light" (Huge / Marathon with playing Incans) . The player yyeah achieved that a lot faster, he still needed 2-3 months iirc. for Deity. TMIT once wrote iirc. that "the jump from Settler towards Immortal is as large as from Immortal to Deity" .

So this would be my recommendation:

Warming up: -> Prince
Getting better: -> Learn to beat Immortal
Deity: -> Only if really very dedicated towards gaming

What's definitely good is installing the BUG and the BULL mod, both show very important gaming info like i. e. how many you get as overflow when whipping something, they show when AIs are plotting a war, help with understanding diplomatic relations, calculate the benefit from buildings etc. and that is no cheating because all those infos would be available by using a calculator or in certain submenus. They also fix a few bugs that are in the game, personally I wouldn't want to play without them, they just make the game much more understandeable so I'd recommend them irrespective of which difficulty you play at.

 

[Macksideshow]

Hey Odin!

I get where you're coming from and my play expectations are pretty similar to yours. I like epic with standard size maps (about 6 - 8 civs).

I get the experience you are seeking on Immortal. I personally get pwned on Deity and actually struggle to comprehend how people win it, I think I'm lacking most in diplo. Other people can win Deity so it comes down to skill level and knowledge of game mechanics.

Try Immortal and ease back if its too hard, I had to understand most of the game mechanics thoroughly (mostly learned from this site) before I could win Immortal plus I also played on lower levels for a long time.

Or you could try a level or two lower and jump up if it was too easy. Civ is good like that as it has a wide range of difficulties. I also think Civ IV is good at not forcing one particular win strategy at any level (my knowledge of Deity being reading about other people's games). If one is trying to minimize finish date then you almost always win by domination but there are still many paths to that. Playing the map is the ideal strategy.

Have fun

EDIT: I see Saerial has posted and his advice is great as usual. Getting BUG/BULL is pretty much essential at the higher levels or things become very tedious.

 

[odin1981]

Thanks for the info Seraiel. I already got bug. So start on prince and then wait and see where I am at pretty much?


My fav civ so far is Ragnar. I love the starting skills . Usually prefer to play on a continents map don't like pangea type maps also.

 

[odin1981]

Thank you also Macksideshow.

 

[Macksideshow]

Ragnar is a good example of a leader who is decent but not considered top tier (AGG trait not as good as some others, starting techs can be restrictive in some situations) However, in the right situations on the right map he can be devastating and a lot of fun. I think you will have some exciting games with him, continents map is a good choice.

 

[odin1981]

Ragnar is a good example of a leader who is decent but not considered top tier (AGG trait not as good as some others, starting techs can be restrictive in some situations) However, in the right situations on the right map he can be devastating and a lot of fun. I think you will have some exciting games with him, continents map is a good choice.

I like it. Its not the best aggressive but every little bit of exp helps when you promote a warrior to axe at 10 exp that hopefully promotes to berserker at 27+. I would also argue that financial is absolutely bonkers this edition and is way too good. So I'm not slouching either 1 good trait and 1 bad. Plus for some strange reason I don't mind early sailing researching either. Its not in the top 5 skills or anything but it has merit.

The thing I like most is the really really hard choice I have if I oracle out. CoL versus Forge tech is a very hard choice for vikings I have found.

 

[Macksideshow]

I like it. Its not the best aggressive but every little bit of exp helps when you promote a warrior to axe at 10 exp that hopefully promotes to berserker at 27+. I would also argue that financial is absolutely bonkers this edition and is way too good. So I'm not slouching either 1 good trait and 1 bad. Plus for some strange reason I don't mind early sailing researching either. Its not in the top 5 skills or anything but it has merit.

The thing I like most is the really really hard choice I have if I oracle out. CoL versus Forge tech is a very hard choice for vikings I have found.

Yeah FIN is easily the best trait imho. Its a little bit of a controversial opinion around here as others will argue PHI is better and FIN is just easier to leverage. I agree it is easy but I also believe it is the strongest (still, I get pwned on Deity). Elizabeth is one of my favourites as she has both of those and I also like Hatshepsut because War Chariots.

AGG allows Cover and Shock promotions with just a barracks which I think can make a big difference to axeman rushes and beserkers for Ragnar. But all of the traits are good and to have one you need to forgo another.

You mentioned Ragnars starting abilities does that refer to techs? I find hunting/fishing to be awkward because unless you have fish you will need to research at least one food tech before getting Mining -> Bronze Working and/or The Wheel -> Pottery which can mean your initial worker has nothing to do at times. Crabs and Clams aren't strong enough food tiles usually and will slow your population growth if they are your only food. How do you usually play the opening with Ragnor?

 

[odin1981]

Yeah FIN is easily the best trait imho. Its a little bit of a controversial opinion around here as others will argue PHI is better and FIN is just easier to leverage. I agree it is easy but I also believe it is the strongest (still, I get pwned on Deity). Elizabeth is one of my favourites as she has both of those and I also like Hatshepsut because War Chariots.

AGG allows Cover and Shock promotions with just a barracks which I think can make a big difference to axeman rushes and beserkers for Ragnar. But all of the traits are good and to have one you need to forgo another.

You mentioned Ragnars starting abilities does that refer to techs? I find hunting/fishing to be awkward because unless you have fish you will need to research at least one food tech before getting Mining -> Bronze Working and/or The Wheel -> Pottery which can mean your initial worker has nothing to do at times. Crabs and Clams aren't strong enough food tiles usually and will slow your population growth if they are your only food. How do you usually play the opening with Ragnor?

Meant his traits. I think hunting is undervalued but i play with huts on. But a starting scout is absolutely bonkers if he doesn't run into a bear for map infoing out early early game. Best skills imo would be min/hunt to start with i think. Having dual access to both AH and BW from hut pops turn 1 is nice. Granted with no huts scouting loses a ton. But a starting scout is still nice for map info and mv 2 at 4000 BC is nice.

 

[Macksideshow]

Meant his traits. I think hunting is undervalued but i play with huts on. But a starting scout is absolutely bonkers if he doesn't run into a bear for map infoing out early early game. Best skills imo would be min/hunt to start with i think. Having dual access to both AH and BW from hut pops turn 1 is nice. Granted with no huts scouting loses a ton. But a starting scout is still nice for map info and mv 2 at 4000 BC is nice.

Fair call. I don't play with huts. I love huts but after reading the differences in what the AI gets from huts vs the human at higher skill levels I couldn't accept them. I like Farming and The Wheel since they are the expensive ones and you know that initial worker wont be bored no matter what

 

[Seraiel]

Thanks for the info Seraiel. I already got bug. So start on prince and then wait and see where I am at pretty much?


My fav civ so far is Ragnar. I love the starting skills . Usually prefer to play on a continents map don't like pangea type maps also.

Continents is a good map-script, generally map-scripts with more than one land-mass are more interesting.

And yes, play Prince.

And only my personal opinion, but Ragnar a typical beginner-choice, I know that because I made that one too ^^ . I also thought "FIN" for economy and "AGG" for warfare and thought "woah, Berserkers" but the leaders that are the most fun imo. are simply the strongest so 1. Huyna Capac (not regarded as a "standard" leader by most because basically a class on his own ^^ ) 2. Darius / Egypt / Rome (War Chariots are really fun and Praetorians are really ridiculously strong) and as 3. I'd rank Lizzy / Gandhi and Mansa.
There are some other leaders that also make fun, Qin Shi Huang i. e. is IND and his PRO-Trait is very strong in combination with his UU (Cho-Ko-Nu's) which are incompareable towards all other UUs because they're basically like a siege unit that can kill , Isabella is fun because of Conquistadors, Sitting Bull again is ridiculous because of his traits and his UB the "Totem Pole" that gives extra XP on Archery units, Oracle Metalcasting, chop-whip a Forge and hire an Engineer and 17T later you get a GE that with which you can bulb Machinery for quadruple-promoted XBows (around 1500BC ^^) and a little like that, Boudica (possibility of Commando-units with only needing 17XP, Commando is a promotion with which the units can use the enemies Roads, like that it's possible to conquer complete maps in less than 10T with i. e. Nukes + Cavs) and Suleiman is the best choice for a "GS-Machinery (or even Engineering) rush" . For the last, skip Fishing, Oracle Metalcasting, generate a GS -> bulb Machinery, next GS can bulb Engineering (if you still don't research Fishing, then don't forget that you need Road-connections to your neighbours for Traderoutes because you don't get them via River + Sailing) -> Trebs 500BC.

All better than Ragnar ^^ .

Hth.

 

[odin1981]

Inca is out for me too broke not fun at all My biggest problem is the building with them the warriors eh warrior rushes get too hard to work on Noble I have found unless real close to civ you need too many to take out 2+ archers. Like Ghandi though. Prefer Ramses out of Egypt. Isabella I like in games. She is quick to found a religion so if she is a next door neighbor she is a good hr or axe rush target for a nice money city given the prophet building and all.

Boudica is my battle buddy. She is always in my 5 civs I have to play against pool. She is a great PA. I like Montezuma in games because he makes stuff happen. I like Catherine as well also cause she makes stuff happen also. I dislike the romans UU is way too good. Not broketastic but having a 8 str inf unit in classic is rough to play against.

 

[Seraiel]

Inca is out for me too broke not fun at all My biggest problem is the building with them the warriors eh warrior rushes get too hard to work on Noble I have found unless real close to civ you need too many to take out 2+ archers. Like Ghandi though. Prefer Ramses out of Egypt. Isabella I like in games. She is quick to found a religion so if she is a next door neighbor she is a good hr or axe rush target for a nice money city given the prophet building and all.

Boudica is my battle buddy. She is always in my 5 civs I have to play against pool. She is a great PA. I like Montezuma in games because he makes stuff happen. I like Catherine as well also cause she makes stuff happen also. I dislike the romans UU is way too good. Not broketastic but having a 8 str inf unit in classic is rough to play against.

1. Warrior-rushes work 'til Prince. It's slightly dependant on luck, civs that start with Hunting sometimes directly tech Archery but generally it's possible to attack the AIs while they still have Warriors.

2. Catherine and Montezuma are fun aswell.

3. War Elephants are also a STR8 unit and Construction a tech in classical age but I understand what you mean. I find playing Rome very fun but below Deity Romans are probably too OP. On Deity one often goes against Longbows at the 1st or 2nd target at latest so the difference between Elephants and Praets is mainly that Praets can spec CR and cost slightly less. Don't understand me wrong, Praets are really great but their real strength lies in fighting Archers, against Longbows and with Catapult the difference is really not great.

Try a game with Lizzy . PHI and FIN are the strongest economical traits and she has both of them. The economy is the most difficult thing to learn in CIV and UUs change the game too greatly in general so I think Lizzy is a good choice, she makes economy a little easier and her UU (and also UB) come so late that you can't become dependant on them.

If you don't want to make it a little easier Hammurabi, De Gaulle or Napoleon would be very good choices imo. They have strong starting techs (basically the smallest bonus of a leader) , no useful UUs or UBs and ORG speeds up Courthouses which otherwise are simply too expensive to be built at all unless having Corporations while IND (De Gaulle) allows for a little fun with Wonders (don't built too many, none is needed to win and you should also not become dependant on them) . I looked through the other leaders, the problem I'd have with advising most of them is that their traits or UUs change the game too much, i. e. EXP with 1-pop-Granaries is a great game-changer, War Chariots (best UU past the Quechua) also completely change the game, CRE changes the game because it allows to settle completely different, so I think you should make a choice first imo. on whether you want to have fun or whether you take a leader that still has advantages but is as close to "no game changing attribute" as possible.

 

[Macksideshow]

Try a game with Lizzy . PHI and FIN are the strongest economical traits and she has both of them. The economy is the most difficult thing to learn in CIV and UUs change the game too greatly in general so I think Lizzy is a good choice, she makes economy a little easier and her UU (and also UB) come so late that you can't become dependant on them.

I second that suggestion. PHI & FIN can find themselves at cross purposes sometimes and the map might steer you to use one to the exclusion of the other. However, when the map rolls for Lizzy and you balance them to work together it's a beautiful thing.

 

[Lexicus]

I've settled into Emperor as a consistently challenging difficulty that I can't win at every time.

Monarch is still something of a challenge but I don't need to think much and can pretty much always win.

I may move on to Immortal if I ever get too comfortable with Emperor; time will tell.

 

[Aristos]

I've settled into Emperor as a consistently challenging difficulty that I can't win at every time.

Monarch is still something of a challenge but I don't need to think much and can pretty much always win.

I may move on to Immortal if I ever get too comfortable with Emperor; time will tell.

K-Mod.

Enough said.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

TMIT once wrote iirc. that "the jump from Settler towards Immortal is as large as from Immortal to Deity".

Noble to immortal, IIRC. Settler gives the player so many bonuses that it's a wider gap in that case.

IMO he should just go up to prince or monarch, then up again if he wins easily etc.

Stuff like IMP and PRO are relative woofer traits, most traits are pretty solid.

 

[gaash2]

I played a lot of civ1 and civ2 a long time ago and that was enough to win on prince with good leaders (Huayna, Darius, Julius are the top 3 in my opinion with Mansu, Liz and Willem close behind)...knowing very little about civ4. Monarch took a little learning Civ4 intricacies but wasn't that much different for me than prince. Monarch -> Emperor is where I've found the biggest jump.

 

[rah]

K-Mod.

Enough said.

Ditto. It makes Deity almost unbeatable.

 

[rbj2001]

This thread inspired me to try my hand at BTS "vanilla" for a change. I have been playing K-mod since forever on Monarch and occasionally Emperor, and some say K-mod makes things 1 to 1.5 levels harder. I usually win at Monarch, and usually lose at Emperor, though I haven't tried an Emperor game in a while.

So I fired up BTS and started an Immortal game, Epic, Tectonics, standard size. I have only vague memories of ever playing Immortal before, and I'm pretty sure I got pwned badly, and quickly. Anyway, long story short, I'm winning the game, having started as Huyana Capac (well why not...).

Spoiler :

OK starting location, 2 seafood, marble, corn, sheep, some river to the north and hills to the south. Found I was on a large island with Pacal to the north and Toku to the West.

Oracled Metal Casting, found some copper, and got the Colossus. Luckily got a GE (was 60% to get a prophet), and built the 'mids. Pacal spreading Bhuddism, so we're all pretty good buddies until Toku attacks me.

Fortunately I've been preparing to attack Pacal (who doesn't have any metal and is busy wonder-spamming, and being a general pain from cultural pressure) with the Elephants he's kindly been supplying me, so I fend off Toku's rather impressive stack, get one of his cities, and am about to take another when the Apostolic Palace forces me to stop.

So I move on to attacking Pacal, take one of his annoying cities, and again am stopped by the AP. Toku attacks again, gets pwned, and I take his capital, before the damn AP stops me again. I actually end up gifting Toku his capital back because it's surrounded by Japanese culture and there's no other way for me to get my stack back into play.

Pacal beats me to Liberalism by 1 turn.

Finally I serve up justice to Pacal and get about 10 world wonders, and Toku kindly agrees to join in my fight for good measure (he's quite pleased, something to do with Mercantilism). Pacal bribes Mansa Musa and Hannibal into war with me, but being across the ocean, and this not being K-mod, they do absolutely nothing and agree to peace shortly after. Pacal has some overseas colonies, and since I don't have Astronomy yet, he becomes my vassal.

Then I turn huge stacks of cuirs, cavalry, and cannons on Toku, wiping his sorry medieval army of samurai and knights from the map.

And there the story lies... I'm way out in first place, not sure which victory to pick.

It seems remarkable, after playing K-mod for so long, how bad the standard AI is at warfare. Anyway, I'm quite pleased to have beaten Immortal BTS, but I'll probably be going back to K-mod in future.