What the hell happened to France?

Bamboocha

Warlord
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Let me start out by saying I haven't been around here for a while (my last visit was in december 2012 it appears) and I've only recently managed to nab the two expansions for Civilization V at a reasonable price (I only had vanilla up until then). I've been fiddling around with all the new content and noticed a few civs had changed. Most notably France.

Back in Vanilla, France was a decent civ.
Its Unique Ability (despite being very inaptly named for Napoleon) gave it +2 culture per city per turn until you discovered steam power. This meant that with the liberty opener, every French city generated as much culture as another civs capital with the tradition opener. Very strong, and allowed you to grab quite a few policies (which could aid you to a cultural victory but also any other kind).
Its Unique Units were a mixed bag. The musketeers were only marginally stronger than the musketmen, had no special abilities that remained on upgrade and would become outdated rather quickly due to rifling being only a few techs removed from gunpowder. The foreign legion on the other hand was pretty solid (bonus when fighting outside of France's borders, encouraging conquest) but was too little too late as by the time they came out much of the game had already been decided.

With BNW, it feels like France only got worse and worse.
Its Unique Ability (despite being more aptly named for Napoleon) is still centered around culture, but now seals France's fate as a cultural victory civilization. Gone is the versatility of the past and, even worse, gone is the usefulness. The only thing France gets is a very marginal bonus to tourism if it meets certain conditions on great works and only in the capital. The restrictions combined with the very limited pay-off means it's oen of teh worst UAs in the game.
Its Unique Unit didn't fare much better. I feel that BNW tilts more towards the late game than Vanilla due to changes in certain victory conditions and changes in gameplay overall. Such a shame that under these conditions, the only useful French UU has been removed and made into a freedom policy perk anyone can get. Instead France retains the musketeer, a rather useless unit that barely outperforms the standard musketman and retains nothing upon upgrade.
Its Unique Tile Improvement is something new and debatably useful. The Chateau is effectively a fortress that gives units parked there a defensive bonus and gives modest culture and gold when worked (more after the invention of flight). The problem is that it comes in relatively late compared to Ancien Regime, you can only build them next to luxury resources and the number you can get is limited. I can see how this is useful and this is the single best feature France has nowadays, but it's not too good I'd say.

And one final kick in the teeth for France: Brazil does everything France does, except better! Rather than giving some minor theming bonus in only the capital, Brazil's Unique Ability doubles tourism during a golden age and produces great artists, writers and musicians twice as fast during golden ages.
Getting golden ages shouldn't be too hard if you know how to manage happiness (and picking a good religion makes this even easier) but its Unique Unit actually makes getting golden ages easier. Of course you could argue that it's too little too late, but even that would be better than what France gets in the UU department (close to nothing). But that's not the case, because Pracinha's being a late game unit works in Brazil's favor. Brazil doesn't want early game golden ages because they make each following golden age more expensive. They want them in the late game, and the Pracinha will get them just what they asked for. Oh, and did you know that the Pracinha never becomes obsolete? And retains its abilities when upgrading to mechanized infantry?
And finally, its Unique Tile Improvement is objectively better than the Chateau. It can be built starting from roughly the same time France can build its Chateau, except it's not limited by the placement of luxury resources. The Brazilwood camp can be built on any jungle tile, which is great because Brazil has a jungle starting bias. It provides +2 gold and not much later +2 culture, as opposed to the chateau's +1 gold and +2 culture. After flight the Chateau's yield improves to +3 gold +3 culture, but that's not enough to make it even close to Brazilwood camps. First of all you need to realize that Brazilwood camps will be more numerous, translating to greater gold and culture yields. Secondly, jungles already generate 2 food and can generate 2 science when universities are built (and you have no reason not to build them regardless of what victory type you want). The Sacred Path pantheon gives an additional +1 culture from jungle tiles. Which means that by the time you enter the renaissance the Brazilwood camp will yield +3 culture, +2 gold, +2 food and +2 science, making them the best tiles in the game (other than petra + desert folklore desert tiles maybe). The only thing they cannot yield is production, and there are multiple ways around that (in the most radical case it means simply cutting down a jungle on top of a hill and replacing it with a mine).

I just feel a bit disappointed. My favorite civ from vanilla not only got gimped, but there's also another civ that outshines France so much in its supposed specialization that France no longer has a reason to exist. It feels like the "standard" civilization with no real unique things to it, the benchmark to which other civs are compared in judging whether they're over- or underpowered.
 
Its Unique Ability (despite being more aptly named for Napoleon) is still centered around culture, but now seals France's fate as a cultural victory civilization. Gone is the versatility of the past and, even worse, gone is the usefulness. The only thing France gets is a very marginal bonus to tourism if it meets certain conditions on great works and only in the capital. The restrictions combined with the very limited pay-off means it's oen of teh worst UAs in the game.

Don't misunderstand the impact of the theming bonus boost -- it applies to BOTH Tourism AND Culture generated from Great Works. Yes, the benefits of this UA kick in much later than the vanilla France, but it is potentially a much greater boost to Culture than in vanilla, particularly if you are able to time winning the World's Fair until after you have a decent number of themed buildings or wonders in your capital.
 
There's always going to be one civ that's particularly better at doing something than other civs. Just play Brazil if you want an easier culture victory. Civ5 is not the type of game that should be designed around balance between civilizations, so I feel that comparing them is a moot argument.

As for me, France is one of my favorite civs to roll, much more so than Brazil. It is definitely easier to win with Brazil, but the one thing you can do with France makes it very fun. The feeling of satisfaction when you watch Paris slowly grow to produce 200-300 Tourism is similar to when you make one gigantic 60+size city. If you don't share this feeling, then France isn't for you.

It is also simply more challenging to navigate France to victory at higher difficulties, whereas Brazil is too straightforward for my taste. You can only build so many wonders, and it requires planning ahead while keeping up in tech in the mid-game.

The only thing I miss about vanilla France was its ability to get gigantic borders. I can just play Shoshone in that regard, so I'm pretty happy. I don't really miss it for its ability to get a bunch of policies, but I suggest Poland for that. They're pretty OP.
 
AI France got nerfed really bad I think, they are always really weak now. I remember the first time I ever played Immortal difficulty, I settled a bit too close to them and they sent a massive army my way and crushed me.
 
NO france got buffed instead of nerved...

The unique improvement chateau actually helps with generating tourisme via hotels and airports it gives you a edge for culture victory or if you go domination counter ideology pressure if you go autocracy... Foreign legion wasnt that game breaking


you underestimate the unique ability? The theming bonusses are huge and are key to a culture victory if you go asthetics with france you get double 3 times the bonusses result you dont need a lot of wonders to win a cultue victory usefull at higher difficulties..

So no france isnt nerved at all.. its just a different playstyle its more defensive and culture style.


Olso because takes longer for the AI to get to infantry you can defend against rifling by musketmen and ingore rifling and go to techs that gives you wonders and museums...
 
Some of these posts inspired me to give France a shot. How should I get started? What should my strategy be?

I would say it depends on difficulty.
On deity I usually rush to acoustics to get sistine. Uffizi is hard to get sometimes.
I also build Oxford to get architecture or acoustics, so I can get the theming bonus going from that as well.

Then I don't know what is best. You can rush to radio and build eiffel, or rush to archaology and engineer Louvre as you start spamming archaologists.
Louvre is more tourism and cheaper to build than Eiffel, but requires a wasted policy in exploration and sometimes the AI get it really early somehow ( on deity ).

Then you just tech hotels, rush buy it in capital, and start to plan your sweet concert tour or finish off the culture leader AI if there's one who's ridiculously far ahead and has relatively few cities.
 
Some of these posts inspired me to give France a shot. How should I get started? What should my strategy be?

As poxpower said, it depends on difficulty. I have been playing France exclusively in the last months and there are several strategies you can try.

The easiest and probably most obvious is to go tall : open Tradition, get 4 cities ASAP and feed Paris with trade routes as soon you get the granaries in your expos and the techs for that give you trade routes. The goal is to get ahead of the AI tech-wise and spam the mid game wonders (if you play on lower difficulties you can try to get the earlier ones too). Obviously you are interested in a few key wonders : Sistine Chapel, Globe Theater, Uffizi, Louvre, Oxford and Hermitage in the Capital (Great Library too if you play Emperor-). If you get all of these you will have a problem with Great Artist generation to fill everything, this means that Leaning Tower of Pisa will give you a nice synergy with all of this and it can be built in an expo too. After finishing Tradition I suggest to at least open up Aestethics to get faster GP generation before the Renaissance and the two points in Rationalism. Then you will probably mix points in Aestethics and Freedom : try to get the free Great Artist as last policy and shortly after a natural one pops and the free Golden Age after the Freedom policy that makes those 50% longer. You will likely swim in culture at this points, especially if you spam Châteaux on those crappy dry flatland plains and grassland. Your monster Paris should be able to work a few of those at some point. This means you can probably afford to open Exploration around the time you hit Archealogy. At this point you just spam archaelogists, fill your museums, get hotels, broadcast towers, Flight, The Internet, Airports and Great Firewall if necessary and voilà.

I just finished a glorious game on Deity using this strategy I got to build : Hanging Gardens, Petra (in an expo, very late), Sistine, Globe, LToP, Taj, Uffizi, Louvre, Eiffel, Broadway (in an expo because I felt filling it is useless), Statue of Liberty, Cristo, CN, SOH, Neuschwanstein, Firewall, Pentagon and Hubble. Was making 700 TPT at the end and I lost International Games which was a shame ^^ Each of my cities had built at least 2 wonders and Paris was size 56 on T307 when I won.

The harder (but IMO, funnier) way to play France is to go wide : in this case you don't really care about wonders but more about getting as many Châteaux as possible when you get to hotels. Then go Flight for the extra culture and The Internet. If you manage to plant 8 to 10 cities you will easily have the production to win WF and IG and that will help a lot. It probably won't be an early win but with that much production you will be able to control the game with a numerous military and kill the culture monsters if you have to. As you have an incentive to go to flight early you can bomber rush these guys if you see you'll have trouble overcoming them in the long run.

Finally, one way to play them I have thought about but didn't try yet is to go Domination. Here again the Château is the key element, coupled with the Musketeers. There are two good things about puppets in this game : first they don't increase the cost of social policies until they are annexed, second, they prioritize gold tiles. This means that if you spam Châteaux in your puppets you will very likely work those tiles while simultaneously going faster through Autocraty policies and having tiles to put units on for defense in case an angry AI tries to get its cities back. there are three ways to go to war this way IMO : XB + Swordsman/Musketeer rush, Arty + Musketeer rush (very effective) and Bomber rush (maybe a little late but sometimes you can't get your infrastructure in shape before Dynamite so you may have to).

Whatever the strategy, I suggest you build a bunch of Swordsmen early, train them against the angry AI rushes and upgrade them to Musketeers. Those are only slightly weaker than Riflemen which allows you to ignore that tech for a while and concentrate on the upper part of the tech tree if you go for a culture victory.
 
Another thing worth mentioning is that City of Light works multiplicative with the Aesthetics finisher. This adds up to a significant tourism and culture boost:

Things like Sistine Chapel, Globe Theater, Great Library, etc will normally give 4 tourism and culture from theming with aesthetics filled, but France gets an extra 4 tourism and culture. For Hermitage and Uffizi they get 6 extra and with Louvre 8 extra. That adds up, and even in the worst scenario (you only get Oxford, Hermitage and a Museum filled) you still get an extra 16 tourism + culture. With the new rules of the game (cv is dependent on tourism), and by adding the chateau that is significantly better than +2 culture per city that becomes 0 in the modern era.

The comparison with Brazil is good, but Brazil struggles with the early game a lot due to the jungle start. Some of the jungle needs to be chopped because you need hammer and food and that means extra workers. If you work mainly jungle tiles your cities will be small and have a low production, you won't be able to win WF or IG, and wont get any good wonders. The Sacred Path pantheon is a nice boost, but it will be pretty hard getting a religion with it, and even if you do, it will be harder to keep it in your cities unless you have a faith national natural wonder which is situational. Overall the main challenge with Brazil is managing a balance between growth, production and jungle tiles. Late game they become quite strong, but if the early game is bad it won't really be a satisfying game, even if you manage to win.
 
^^I agree about Brazil. I've never had a decent game playing as them.
 
XB + Swordsman/Musketeer rush, Arty + Musketeer rush

I don't think musketeers are better than just knights though :/

So france doesn't really get much of anything to get an edge in war. Much better to just sit in your corner and culture away.
 
I don't think musketeers are better than just knights though :/

So france doesn't really get much of anything to get an edge in war. Much better to just sit in your corner and culture away.

They're better blocker units ;) They don't need to be cycled as often because they can take more hits and they stay relevant in their role longer. If they're well promoted they can stand to a swarm of riflemen and still protect your artillery efficiently.

I agree that they're not overpowered as, say, Camel Archers, but I definitely like to have a few of them in my army, they're definitely more useful than, say, Pracinha :p
 
France isn't terrible by any stretch.

Foreign legion you get now from Freedom (probably one of the best policies ever - instant army, just add water!)
 
Foreign legion you get now from Freedom (probably one of the best policies ever - instant army, just add water!)

I used to love that Freedom policy, but unless I'm way behind in military and about to be overrun I now take Universal Suffrage for my first level-2 tenet, and Arsenal of Democracy for my second (by the time I get 5 in Freedom, Foreign Legionnaires are no longer OP)

Arsenal of Democracy lets you gift outdated units, captured barbarian ships, lancers, and cheap cheap Landsknechts to CS's for 20 or sometimes 25 influence. It's a very cost effective way to take over the world congress. I really love sending privateers up to the arctic to capture galleys and triremes and gifting those; not really worth the effort for just 5 influence but great for +20.
 
As poxpower said, it depends on difficulty. I have been playing France exclusively in the last months and there are several strategies you can try.

The easiest and probably most obvious is to go tall : open Tradition, get 4 cities ASAP and feed Paris with trade routes as soon you get the granaries in your expos and the techs for that give you trade routes. The goal is to get ahead of the AI tech-wise and spam the mid game wonders (if you play on lower difficulties you can try to get the earlier ones too). Obviously you are interested in a few key wonders : Sistine Chapel, Globe Theater, Uffizi, Louvre, Oxford and Hermitage in the Capital (Great Library too if you play Emperor-). If you get all of these you will have a problem with Great Artist generation to fill everything, this means that Leaning Tower of Pisa will give you a nice synergy with all of this and it can be built in an expo too. After finishing Tradition I suggest to at least open up Aestethics to get faster GP generation before the Renaissance and the two points in Rationalism. Then you will probably mix points in Aestethics and Freedom : try to get the free Great Artist as last policy and shortly after a natural one pops and the free Golden Age after the Freedom policy that makes those 50% longer. You will likely swim in culture at this points, especially if you spam Châteaux on those crappy dry flatland plains and grassland. Your monster Paris should be able to work a few of those at some point. This means you can probably afford to open Exploration around the time you hit Archealogy. At this point you just spam archaelogists, fill your museums, get hotels, broadcast towers, Flight, The Internet, Airports and Great Firewall if necessary and voilà.

I just finished a glorious game on Deity using this strategy I got to build : Hanging Gardens, Petra (in an expo, very late), Sistine, Globe, LToP, Taj, Uffizi, Louvre, Eiffel, Broadway (in an expo because I felt filling it is useless), Statue of Liberty, Cristo, CN, SOH, Neuschwanstein, Firewall, Pentagon and Hubble. Was making 700 TPT at the end and I lost International Games which was a shame ^^ Each of my cities had built at least 2 wonders and Paris was size 56 on T307 when I won.

The harder (but IMO, funnier) way to play France is to go wide : in this case you don't really care about wonders but more about getting as many Châteaux as possible when you get to hotels. Then go Flight for the extra culture and The Internet. If you manage to plant 8 to 10 cities you will easily have the production to win WF and IG and that will help a lot. It probably won't be an early win but with that much production you will be able to control the game with a numerous military and kill the culture monsters if you have to. As you have an incentive to go to flight early you can bomber rush these guys if you see you'll have trouble overcoming them in the long run.

Finally, one way to play them I have thought about but didn't try yet is to go Domination. Here again the Château is the key element, coupled with the Musketeers. There are two good things about puppets in this game : first they don't increase the cost of social policies until they are annexed, second, they prioritize gold tiles. This means that if you spam Châteaux in your puppets you will very likely work those tiles while simultaneously going faster through Autocraty policies and having tiles to put units on for defense in case an angry AI tries to get its cities back. there are three ways to go to war this way IMO : XB + Swordsman/Musketeer rush, Arty + Musketeer rush (very effective) and Bomber rush (maybe a little late but sometimes you can't get your infrastructure in shape before Dynamite so you may have to).

Whatever the strategy, I suggest you build a bunch of Swordsmen early, train them against the angry AI rushes and upgrade them to Musketeers. Those are only slightly weaker than Riflemen which allows you to ignore that tech for a while and concentrate on the upper part of the tech tree if you go for a culture victory.

Call me stupid if you want, but I don't really get the difference between tall and wide. Going tall basically means your cities only exist to feed caravan food to the capital, right? Wouldn't more cities (ie. wide) be better for that, as it means more (internal) trade routes to Paris to feed your capital into some super-city?
 
Call me stupid if you want, but I don't really get the difference between tall and wide. Going tall basically means your cities only exist to feed caravan food to the capital, right? Wouldn't more cities (ie. wide) be better for that, as it means more (internal) trade routes to Paris to feed your capital into some super-city?

Tall means 4 city tradition.
Wide means 6 - 8 city liberty.
Super wide means more than that.

The game punishes making carpets of cities more than earlier Civs.
 
Call me stupid if you want, but I don't really get the difference between tall and wide. Going tall basically means your cities only exist to feed caravan food to the capital, right? Wouldn't more cities (ie. wide) be better for that, as it means more (internal) trade routes to Paris to feed your capital into some super-city?

What Volcanon said :)

You will probably want to run all your trade routes from your expos to your cap eventually, even when playing Liberty, but as you won't get the bonus from Monarchy and have a large amount of cities your happiness will be dire till mid game and Ideologies so you may not be able to do this from the get go, especially if you don't manage to found or get a useful religion... With Tradition you also get Landed Elite which compensates for having less possible caravans to your cap.
 
Call me stupid if you want, but I don't really get the difference between tall and wide. Going tall basically means your cities only exist to feed caravan food to the capital, right? Wouldn't more cities (ie. wide) be better for that, as it means more (internal) trade routes to Paris to feed your capital into some super-city?

Are talking in the context of a CV with France or tall vs wide in general?

Either way in a tall empire the other cities have other purposes, not just feeding the capital. They need to grow themselves into powerful cities that can build wonders and generate culture,science,etc. You will likely feed your expos with food caravans also.

Unless you are Poland, that strategy of going wide solely to feed the capital with food is not very practical. Your total TR is limited so you can't have a big number of cities. Unless you have Petra or Colossus you will have a maximum number of 5 trade routes for more than half the time. In the early game you only have 2-3. If you go wide with liberty you lose all the food and happiness bonuses from tradition. If you go wide with tradition you will not have all the bonuses from liberty which are quite important for wide empires.

What you could do is a hybrid strategy where you settle 4-5 cities with tradition and later during medieval/renaissance you conquer 2-3 more (or even better get them from peace deals so you will have them fully developed). You could use the filler policies on liberty right side. This way you get the best of both "worlds", but it is very map dependent as you will struggle to get the happiness for it.
 
I think France makes most sense as a Tradition (3-5) city opening and then putting some policies into Aesthetics and Rationalism (maybe 1 into exploration if you can spare the policy to get the Louvre).

You can build a lot of cities as Liberty but that will delay your National Wonders (you want Oxford University & Hermitage as early as possible) & make it harder to build the renaissance wonders.
Going tall with Tradition means your capital will have higher production for building Wonders too - you really do not want to miss out on Sistine Chapel.
If another runaway cultural civ gets Sistine Chapel that can make your life a real nightmare.

As far as Musketeers go well, I'd say they are good as a tanking unit and not much else. I wouldn't bother with conquest but if you have a threatening neighbor you could certainly mass several few of these on your border (on some rough terrain with forts) and declare war and let your enemy wear themselves out via attrition...

They'll have to divert their cities away from infrastructure into building units which should weaken them and give you some breathing space to focus on your culture game. Once their army is thinned out you can settle for peace on favorable terms.
 
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