So every so often I like checking my assumptions as far as my build order. So here's the current city, jungle heavy not a lot of hammers. Its on the water near an aggressive opponent so getting up the castle seems important. Playing Authority. So what would your say next 3-5 buildings be in this city?
What would you build next?
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Bryan317
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Me personally I usually go with the shortest build times that offer the best yields. Of course these yields must favor your play style or victory condition. And I've definitely spent the least amount of time with Authority. Smoke houses don't help you much do they?
Obviously the castle is done in one turn now. I might have questioned if you needed it right away. The herbalist is the obvious choice next because it's done in two turns and provides food. And I love food in this mod regardless of policy in place.
Next is the forge. This will make all subsequent buildings arrive faster.
Lighthouses are meh. But maybe with eventual Imperialism you'll want it next.
But honestly I'd probably be building the aqueduct. I like growth.
Obviously the castle is done in one turn now. I might have questioned if you needed it right away. The herbalist is the obvious choice next because it's done in two turns and provides food. And I love food in this mod regardless of policy in place.
Next is the forge. This will make all subsequent buildings arrive faster.
Lighthouses are meh. But maybe with eventual Imperialism you'll want it next.
But honestly I'd probably be building the aqueduct. I like growth.
Forge gives an engineer slot, better than a merchant imo, and you can afford the investment so I think its a no-brainer.
Do you have any city state alliances for the chancery?
You have (very) low unit count and horsehocky tons of money, so armory looks good (this city is on the front line I assume from the screenshot) and you have the arena to buff it. Will you got fealty? Then maybe delay for policy but unsure.
Is there any chance of getting pearls for WLTKD? If not circus is better, but probably want aqueduct first. In fact after herbalist you might grow quickly to 10 so that bumps up the (invested) aqueduct for me nearer the top for the insta prod bonus.
Do you have any city state alliances for the chancery?
You have (very) low unit count and horsehocky tons of money, so armory looks good (this city is on the front line I assume from the screenshot) and you have the arena to buff it. Will you got fealty? Then maybe delay for policy but unsure.
Is there any chance of getting pearls for WLTKD? If not circus is better, but probably want aqueduct first. In fact after herbalist you might grow quickly to 10 so that bumps up the (invested) aqueduct for me nearer the top for the insta prod bonus.
Bryan317
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I meant to give you a more detailed answer but I got interrupted at work. Maybe I should be working and not chatting about Civ 5....
Yea merchants were valuable up to about the point you've reached now. Gold was much harder to come by in the early game. It also helps to get those towns laid out asap. But I'd say you're at the point now where I personally abandon Merchant specialist all together. You should either be switching to engineer specialist. Or, actually working the land can be a better choice because it's providing growth.
In the later half of the game Merchant specialists do not really pay off. Yes you can get a gold boost from their special ability, but you have to ask yourself what could have been achieved while the specialists was in use. The answer was most likely more growth and production.
Yea merchants were valuable up to about the point you've reached now. Gold was much harder to come by in the early game. It also helps to get those towns laid out asap. But I'd say you're at the point now where I personally abandon Merchant specialist all together. You should either be switching to engineer specialist. Or, actually working the land can be a better choice because it's providing growth.
In the later half of the game Merchant specialists do not really pay off. Yes you can get a gold boost from their special ability, but you have to ask yourself what could have been achieved while the specialists was in use. The answer was most likely more growth and production.
Since you already have an arena, forge for sure. 1 sci 2 p for a low build cost is good even with no mines. access to a specialist that your UB boosts a little is also nice.
After that the choice is harder. it's a shame you can't get that horse tile or stable would have been a good choice. Bath + amphitheater will boost golden age culture a lot (that 7 would go up to 14!), but it looks like your golden age will be over or nearly over by the time that would finish building. I would have gone for that before castle. But at this point perhaps armory is better.
After that the choice is harder. it's a shame you can't get that horse tile or stable would have been a good choice. Bath + amphitheater will boost golden age culture a lot (that 7 would go up to 14!), but it looks like your golden age will be over or nearly over by the time that would finish building. I would have gone for that before castle. But at this point perhaps armory is better.
A few notes from comments so far:
1) Perhaps your right that engineers might be better now, though lets remember Persia gets GAP from its gold, so gold is a bit stronger than normal.
2) I was happy with the castle choice. Assyria has been quite aggressive so far and declared on me a bit a go with a decent navy, so ultimately I think it was the right call.
3) Between Edirne having been conquered (by me) and its low hammers, it is behind in buildings. So keep in mind for those who might say "I would have built X a while ago", there just hasn't been a lot of hammer time to complete a lot of things. Now if there is a building you think was a waste that I should not have built that is good feedback.
1) Perhaps your right that engineers might be better now, though lets remember Persia gets GAP from its gold, so gold is a bit stronger than normal.
2) I was happy with the castle choice. Assyria has been quite aggressive so far and declared on me a bit a go with a decent navy, so ultimately I think it was the right call.
3) Between Edirne having been conquered (by me) and its low hammers, it is behind in buildings. So keep in mind for those who might say "I would have built X a while ago", there just hasn't been a lot of hammer time to complete a lot of things. Now if there is a building you think was a waste that I should not have built that is good feedback.
Bryan317
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Yea hope my comments didn't go too far off subject. But it sort of ties into your future build choices.
As you know there are multiple paths to victory in this game. I personally don't build any castles until they are almost obsolete. I'm waiting until the number of turns to complete them is very low. I'm basically just getting them to get the next building in the tier. This doesn't mean I'm correct. It's just a play choice.
As you know there are multiple paths to victory in this game. I personally don't build any castles until they are almost obsolete. I'm waiting until the number of turns to complete them is very low. I'm basically just getting them to get the next building in the tier. This doesn't mean I'm correct. It's just a play choice.
I like the castle because of neighbour.
Herbalist is questionable with only one plantation but you already paid for it so.
I tend to autopilot forge first but its zero mines.
So
Forge and work that engineer (or skip until you have a mine or two up) > Armory > Smokehouse (more border growth and more yields om bg) > culture buildings (probably circus first).
Herbalist is questionable with only one plantation but you already paid for it so.
I tend to autopilot forge first but its zero mines.
So
Forge and work that engineer (or skip until you have a mine or two up) > Armory > Smokehouse (more border growth and more yields om bg) > culture buildings (probably circus first).
The neighbour is Ottoman who already lost the war. Where even is Assyria? I don't see the need of Castle since the city can't shoot towards the border anyway. Unless Assyria is very close to the north?
I would've gone for Forge first.
I would've gone for Forge first.
See that strip of land to the northwest…that’s Assyria. Aka they are right there
Forge first, no question, and work the engineer to catch up with building all the stuff this city is missing. That's a +25% production for 2 turns after a must have investment. After that, chancery if you have 2+ alliances in place (and work the specialist) or stable/armory, even wityh just 1 cattle because +5 production is +5 production and you unlocked knights with many spare horses, the city could help fill the supply cap with the bonus to mounted units. You also are at 2/5 trade routes, those are worth more than buildings if you have trade partners or can send production routes.
At 9 population with negative happiness (let us know what sources of unhappiness are you fighting against, but I bet at least 3 points of boredom) halt grow and don't work unimproved jungle, better work those scientist slots because 125 science at turn 160 is asking for problems, very very low. Merchants are not worth it, except if that's your only city with 2 slots and you're working them for a CS quest. Only work that jungle after you complete a triangle lumbermill, but first chop whatever tiles you are not going to improve (start with the one west of cocoa) to speed up the current buildings production.
The castle has been the worst possible decision. No quarries, no policy synergy (I see armory at 11 turns still so no 2nd fealty yet, I'd delay armory after that if that's your next policy), so 11 turns or 5+250g for a thing that doesn't give yields nor happiness. If you are authority Persia with 8/24 war supply and are worried about city defense, then build a Immortal, upgrade to pike and garrison/fortify it, that's better defense than a castle. Even if you're worried of a possible invasion, most of the time a castle is best only half-build and then switch to another building, ready to invest (or take 2-3 turns) if the enemy declares war. In meantime, build stuff that helps you win and save on the maintenance. Herbalist costs 60 (iirc?) hammers and gives 1 hammer and some useless food at this stage, that's terrible returns and not a priority either, probably never will in this city.
So, recap: Forge+engineer -> Chancery (if 2+ CS allies)+diplomat -> Armory(if you're going statecraft/artistry) -> Stable -> Armory (if you're going piety and unlocked the policy by now, else delay even a lil more) -> caravans/knights/immortals -> Chancery even if no allies -> fix your happiness with amphiteaters and circuses. It's not a very good city so probably 10-12 pop will be more than enough to work anything worth working for a long time (4-5 specialists, 3 jungle lumbermills, 1 pasture, 2 trading posts, 1 plantation, a mine or two later).
At 9 population with negative happiness (let us know what sources of unhappiness are you fighting against, but I bet at least 3 points of boredom) halt grow and don't work unimproved jungle, better work those scientist slots because 125 science at turn 160 is asking for problems, very very low. Merchants are not worth it, except if that's your only city with 2 slots and you're working them for a CS quest. Only work that jungle after you complete a triangle lumbermill, but first chop whatever tiles you are not going to improve (start with the one west of cocoa) to speed up the current buildings production.
The castle has been the worst possible decision. No quarries, no policy synergy (I see armory at 11 turns still so no 2nd fealty yet, I'd delay armory after that if that's your next policy), so 11 turns or 5+250g for a thing that doesn't give yields nor happiness. If you are authority Persia with 8/24 war supply and are worried about city defense, then build a Immortal, upgrade to pike and garrison/fortify it, that's better defense than a castle. Even if you're worried of a possible invasion, most of the time a castle is best only half-build and then switch to another building, ready to invest (or take 2-3 turns) if the enemy declares war. In meantime, build stuff that helps you win and save on the maintenance. Herbalist costs 60 (iirc?) hammers and gives 1 hammer and some useless food at this stage, that's terrible returns and not a priority either, probably never will in this city.
So, recap: Forge+engineer -> Chancery (if 2+ CS allies)+diplomat -> Armory(if you're going statecraft/artistry) -> Stable -> Armory (if you're going piety and unlocked the policy by now, else delay even a lil more) -> caravans/knights/immortals -> Chancery even if no allies -> fix your happiness with amphiteaters and circuses. It's not a very good city so probably 10-12 pop will be more than enough to work anything worth working for a long time (4-5 specialists, 3 jungle lumbermills, 1 pasture, 2 trading posts, 1 plantation, a mine or two later).
Walls and castle are usually the first thing I build in a city next to an aggressive neighbor, but that's assuming I have the fealty policy that makes castles quick and/or the reformation policy that buffs defensive buildings (which you don't have yet). I would probably finish the castle, build the quick forge, and then build whatever the city needs to reduce unhappiness. Once it's a happy city build the aqueduct.
EDIT: Just realise mr @randomnub wrote basically same thing to me, but i dont want to delete it or update it, so forgive me it i repeat much
IMO you should buy 2 tiles with hills, prioritizing the one with jungle, and buy forge.
Build mines on this hills asap. By the time you chop off foreset it should allow you to finish forge or next building.
Which give you slot for enginner.
The city is too high. 6 happiness and 10 unhappiness, the penalty for units will be too big. This city is useless in case war.
Gold is "indirect global supplementary production", which you have already too much surplus, so 2 merchants has no sense to me, unless
you treat this city unly as support to invest more in other cities.
Then i would invest in circus, the city unhappiness cant exceed number of citizen, unless you have extra from urbanisation, so in this case
one enginner would be optimal. The circus will increase your happiness by one releasing you from headache of managing all three unhapiness sources,
it also reduce your boredom by 1 which should be one of main causes, and will help you stabilise later.
For now i would hit checkbox to prevent growth, and manuall assign all the plots, just to be sure, you wont be bother by next unhappy citizen in 15 turns.
This two moves would make city 7hap 9unhap. Also circus gives one time culture boos, which will help with border growth and give additional 1-time
production boost from authority.
You didnt utilised 3 of 5 caravans. The value of caravans is huge, you should always prioritize them asap. If you dont have good trade partners, that
will give you lots of science and culture, production is also very viaable. Never think too much where to sent caravans, the loss of not using them is too high.
Food is in a way delayed production, so it is also very good, but first you need sustain the happiness.
Villages give you additional yield when trade route pass trough them, so supply this city in such way that it would go trough villages, by default caravans go trough roads, so
basically it means you need chose properly city location.
Imo you need army if you have 24 supply your oponnent might have more, and 8 is too less. In cities without armoury build melee units, since they
get much more exprience from combat then archer. Putting them on fortify near city, will quickly let them compensate experience from armoury.
If you have time invest in armoury in other city and build archers there.
If you have at least 2 allys chancery could give you some amount of production. 2p per ally is about 15% increase, which 1 turn less for every 7 turns needed.
I would also buy and improve tile with bison, and invest in smokehouse, that would give you very efficient tile, and ultimately +2 border production also
indirectly gives you production from border growth.
Then i would probably go stable, good production and cattle boost, also should be around 10% production and knight production boost.
EDIT2: It seems oponent have some units near your border, they usually dont do that if they have respect to you, so units could be general priority.
Army is important, many times when i manage to survice and go full war economy, after the war oponent was friendly, this is due to fact, that i got stronger,
and wasnt easy target any more, therefor got more respect.
IMO you should buy 2 tiles with hills, prioritizing the one with jungle, and buy forge.
Build mines on this hills asap. By the time you chop off foreset it should allow you to finish forge or next building.
Which give you slot for enginner.
The city is too high. 6 happiness and 10 unhappiness, the penalty for units will be too big. This city is useless in case war.
Gold is "indirect global supplementary production", which you have already too much surplus, so 2 merchants has no sense to me, unless
you treat this city unly as support to invest more in other cities.
Then i would invest in circus, the city unhappiness cant exceed number of citizen, unless you have extra from urbanisation, so in this case
one enginner would be optimal. The circus will increase your happiness by one releasing you from headache of managing all three unhapiness sources,
it also reduce your boredom by 1 which should be one of main causes, and will help you stabilise later.
For now i would hit checkbox to prevent growth, and manuall assign all the plots, just to be sure, you wont be bother by next unhappy citizen in 15 turns.
This two moves would make city 7hap 9unhap. Also circus gives one time culture boos, which will help with border growth and give additional 1-time
production boost from authority.
You didnt utilised 3 of 5 caravans. The value of caravans is huge, you should always prioritize them asap. If you dont have good trade partners, that
will give you lots of science and culture, production is also very viaable. Never think too much where to sent caravans, the loss of not using them is too high.
Food is in a way delayed production, so it is also very good, but first you need sustain the happiness.
Villages give you additional yield when trade route pass trough them, so supply this city in such way that it would go trough villages, by default caravans go trough roads, so
basically it means you need chose properly city location.
Imo you need army if you have 24 supply your oponnent might have more, and 8 is too less. In cities without armoury build melee units, since they
get much more exprience from combat then archer. Putting them on fortify near city, will quickly let them compensate experience from armoury.
If you have time invest in armoury in other city and build archers there.
If you have at least 2 allys chancery could give you some amount of production. 2p per ally is about 15% increase, which 1 turn less for every 7 turns needed.
I would also buy and improve tile with bison, and invest in smokehouse, that would give you very efficient tile, and ultimately +2 border production also
indirectly gives you production from border growth.
Then i would probably go stable, good production and cattle boost, also should be around 10% production and knight production boost.
EDIT2: It seems oponent have some units near your border, they usually dont do that if they have respect to you, so units could be general priority.
Army is important, many times when i manage to survice and go full war economy, after the war oponent was friendly, this is due to fact, that i got stronger,
and wasnt easy target any more, therefor got more respect.
Last edited:
greenfieldpark
Warlord
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- Aug 28, 2007
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This is a great thread. Would love more like this.
There's no need to worry about a heavily maimed enemy (second city is conquered).
