What's the Appeal with Marathon/Epic?

[madscientist]

I have already said my preference for Marathon speed, so I will not go there.

But map isze definitely makes things more interesting. FOr a long time I played Marathon speed on huge maps. Games lasted forever, with the end being predictably either a spaceship win or UN diplomatic because it was simply too tiring to get the land quota. The game was rather tough.

I now play standard size maps, which I feel are a bit easier but the game flows better. All victories are reasonably within grasp.

I think speed and map size are a matter of taste and enjoyment, rather than challenge.

 

[Daedal]

Water is an AI nerf. Tech brokering is an AI nerf. Playing at any difficulty below deity is an AI nerf. Seems like the OP's question was answered in the first page of replies and now the thread's just turned into a pissing contest.

 

[CivDude86]

While talking about nerf, spirtual and philophosical are slightly nerfed in marathon since anarchy and GAs are only doubled.

 

[dermoth]

Apologies if this has been covered already (I searched the previous pages for mentions of espionage, and only found one tangential reference) but how does the change in speed affect espionage?

I started out playing on Normal speed, and have become used to it. Marathon and Epic *feel* wrong to me, although there's no good reason for this, obviously. But I'm interested in how espionage is affected - do you get the same number of EPs from buildings at epic/marathon as you do from Normal, or is it scaled?

 

[madscientist]

On Marathon I get 4 eps/turn from the palace, 2eps/turn from courthouses etc.. It's the same. You have to get generally 3 times the eps to steal a tech, similar to trying to buy a tech from an AI at roughly 1gold/beaker.

Items where marathon speed affects it, please correct me if I am wrong, X = normal speed.

techs: 3X
Hammers for buildings: 3X, but unsure
Units: 2X
Worker building: 3X
Golden Age: 2X

I know I amissing some.

 

[CivMcNut]

So a lot of what I gather is having that time to move units around and wage war quickly in relation to the progress of teching makes for a more enjoyable warmongering experience, and this is also a pretty close feel to the previous Civ games that many of us played.

I'll have to keep giving it a shot then, my isolated game I started on Epic speed is frustrating, but I'm catching up. I must admit, it's fun rolling over Montezuma's Grenaiders with tanks and looking over at his research seing he's stuck for 16 more turns researching Physics.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I do not see any inherent reason why the AI should be at a disadvantage or advantage on marathon speed as opposed to some other speed.

Howerver, here is an example from about 1/2 year ago, where the AI had a definite advantage. (Since it was a while ago I do not remember all of the details.)
On marathon speed, on about turn 8 an AI scout finds my capitol.
On about turn 25 this AI attacks my capitol with about 3 archers.
I am wiped out.

I believe I had one warrior. On marathon speed there is a possibilty I could have built a warrior (giving me 2 in total) by about that time, depending on the starting position. This is the most I could have had.
I believe I was wiped out before researching my first Tech.
On marathon speed there is a possibilty I could have researched a Tech by about that time, depending on the starting position. This is the most I could have had.

On marathon speed there is a premium on those devices that allow you to get an extra military defender right away: slavery, drafting with Nationhood, paying to finish a build, etc. There is less time to build units in the ordinary manner relative to the movement speed of attacks.

 

[Underdawg]

epic/marathon makes the game easier for the human player. admittedly, it can be more enjoyable to get more out of each age, but then it also makes each game longer and even on normal speed my domination games take around 9 hours and i like to finish my games in max 2 sittings or else i get bored and start a new game.

My Large/epic 11AI wins are done in 3:30 hours. Granted, I don't play with animations on. It depends on your PC really.

Again, I play epic because of the feel. Normal goes by so quickly..... 2 hours max and a normal game is done. Again, the length of one's games depend on their PC (CPU mainly).

 

[Molybdeus]

I do not see any inherent reason why the AI should be at a disadvantage or advantage on marathon speed as opposed to some other speed.

Marathon speed favors attacking. Since most of the higher difficulty players spend most of the game on the offensive, that makes it easier.

I actually don't think there is much difference if you are a peaceful builder. It might be a little more difficult because it is harder to respond to attacks by building military resources, but overall I think it is about the same.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Assuming marathon speed favors attacking, that is also true for the AI attacking you, particularly very early in the game when it has an advantage.

If you reach a stage where a player is doing relatively well, then he is more likely to be attacking than defending. It is presumably these situations to which you refer.

Marathon speed favors attacking. Since most of the higher difficulty players spend most of the game on the offensive, that makes it easier.

I actually don't think there is much difference if you are a peaceful builder. It might be a little more difficult because it is harder to respond to attacks by building military resources, but overall I think it is about the same.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Hmm, AI doesn't attak early on though, especially on higher difficulty levels. If they did we would be knackered.

 

[cabert]

Actually, you can create more than one item in a single turn even without draft. I routinely whip multiple items in a city when I'm in a pinch.

An average city can whip a marine & Sam and also pop out a third item in the same turn.

sure, but you'll get them one at a time, meaning that it will take 3 turns for your 3 items.
I do this quite often for large captured cities, but the fact remains : 1 unit / turn is max, drafting excluded.

 

[morchuflex]

BTW, does anyone know why Golden Age duration doesn't exactly scale with game speed? IIRC a GA lasts 8 turns on normal but only 10 (I would have expected 12) on Epic. Why?

 

[Sjaramei]

Hmm, AI doesn't attak early on though, especially on higher difficulty levels. If they did we would be knackered.

I've been hit by Shaka 20-30 tiles away from me in 2100 bc, Axes and Impis. Fun times! (Immortal)
(Seriously, Aggressive AI... it makes the game a lot harder military wise)

Now since it's a "fact" that the game is easier on marathon..., marathon speed means 2x the cost of units (cheaper then normal), Agg. AI means the computer spamming it's already sick bonuses on even more cheaper units. Maybe it's time to check if it's really that way anymore?

 

[humbe]

I play mostly on Marathon as that makes unit able to move. On normal speed, you can't fight the second world war.. If you march on your enemy in 1940 you've barely reached your own border at 1945. In the old days you can literally use thousands of years for a minor conquest. If one walks 20 kilometers a day, one would move longer than around the globe in one year. Yet units can walk like one square in 40 years or so on normal game speed. I'm not saying the game would be better if all units could get anywhere each turn, but personally I think marathon is nice as it allows you to use your units.

Research and production is offset by requiring more, so rest of the game should be fairly balanced anyways.. The extra move turns both ways. Your enemy won't be able to research 5 techs while you march on him, and neither can you when you are attacked. So it's much more important to not fall behind too much with your military.

That doesn't mean you can just conquer all in the old days. If you're playing on appropriate difficulty levels, the AI will have researched at least as much as you have, and they'll have a lot of units. If you war such an AI, you'll probably lose quite a lot of troops. As it takes time to build your army back, you need to make sure you don't lose units too fast, so others will take advantage and pummel you before you can build yourself back up. Rather than being limited of how quick you can move your units, you're limited of how fast you can train units.

And people saying marathon is more forgiving as to unit movement that is true. But it is far less forgiving than fast game speeds as to research and building. Whomever thinks it is easier, go try.. And if you still think, you can actually adjust the difficulty level.

 

[Alsn]

(Seriously, Aggressive AI... it makes the game a lot harder military wise)

Yes, but it also makes you a veritable tech monster if you're good at handling the AI in defensive wars.

Everything is relative, saying one AI is better than the other because it has a different focus is just silly. If aggressive AI was actually an entirely different AI then I might be inclined to agree but as it is all it does is sacrifice tech for masses of military units which is just as exploitable as the regular AI's passiveness.

 

[Sjaramei]

Yes, but it also makes you a veritable tech monster if you're good at handling the AI in defensive wars.

Everything is relative, saying one AI is better than the other because it has a different focus is just silly. If aggressive AI was actually an entirely different AI then I might be inclined to agree but as it is all it does is sacrifice tech for masses of military units which is just as exploitable as the regular AI's passiveness.

Where did I say it was better. Please understand the context I used it in before twisting it to another debate whichever is best of the two options.

It's totally irrelevant for this discussion anyway, I raised a question regarding Marathon/Agg. AI, not another stupid Agg. AI vs default discussion..... Make a new topic if you feel you have something to prove about that.

 

[Bhruic]

I used to subscribe to the "using Aggressive AI makes the AI bad at tech" theory. Until, playing my latest game (hemisphere map, 2 continents), I thought I was doing decently on my continent, roughly close to the leaders in points, slight tech advantage, all friendly... Then I met the other continent. The Greeks has steamrolled the majority of the continent. Where on our continent, the point average for the leaders was about 1100, the Greeks were in the mid 1800s. And of course all those cities were generating research, putting him fairly far ahead.

So while it's true that comparing two Civs of the same size will have the Agg AI version with less tech, having more units can lead to larger Empires, which can make up that tech deficit.

Bh

 

[Quornix]

Custom speed (replaced Quick)
4x Tech
3x (Everything else)
2x Units

I also replaced the unit move rates, so that there are fast units (warriors, spears, pikes, x-bows, muskets, rifles, infantry) that move at 3, slow units (axes, maces, archers, longbows, grenadiers) that move at 2, and the siege moves at 1. Of course mounted and mechanized troops are significantly faster as well (5, then 6+).

Best with big maps, obviously. It does make the game easier, but since I wasn't playing on Deity anyway, I just crank up the difficulty.

Let's just say that it redefines what a "border city" is. And 3 move barbarian warriors cause all sorts of trouble.

 

[TriPp]

Hey, just throwin out my 2 .

I play on prince(rdy to move onto monarch i think), standard map size(most sp types) always have AGG AI and Raging barbs ON aswell as No Tech Brokering and ive tried all the game speeds except quick.

I started playing on normal speed(only been playin civ for a couple weeks never played civ b4 BtS) to get the feel for the "base" build/tech times then moved on to Epic and then quickly onto Marathon.

I cant say i noticed much of a difference in difficulty! I do however mostly go for domination wins. Thats why i like agg AI, the game is way to easy without it on! Same goes for Raging barbs it makes the expansion part of the game much more challenging, just played a game where there was atleast 7-8 barbs on screen at once!(very shortly after 2000bc, Fun Fun ). If you havnt noticed i dislike a cake walk and for that reason i have space race turned off(i guess it doesnt go well with agg ai if you yourself are going for a space victory, imho its boring and pretty easy and sometimes i just dont wanna feel rushed). Anyway, just ramblin(as i guess i tend to do on forums) about my playstyle which ofcourse is directly related to my feelings about game speed.

For normal games its just as much a click fest(a less fun click fest) to end the turn as it is on marathon(espescially if going space race or really any win besides dom/conq) the techs go by so quickly they are almost useless especially military techs. I wonder if the reason i see so many space race victories is 'cause most people play on normal where teching is much quicker?

Epic is cool, everything costing 50% more lets me actually use the things i research and build and i can see why people would say that it "feels more like civ".

Marathon for me is just simply even cooler. Techs being 3x base cost and units only being 2x base cost makes war alot of fun with big stacks and/or tacticle strikes(you now have the time) rather than just another form of tech race!
Having to end the turn a few times in a row because there is nothing to do in the begginning of the game is such a small price to pay for the great game ahead! My marathon games on a standard map (dom victory) only take me twice aslong as on normal speed (9-12hours) which feels just aslong anyway 'cause theres alot more important moves to make at war(among many other things) and its just more fun to me i guess(times flys when your havin fun )
With marathon i just feel like im getting the most out of everything, without feeling rushed or feeling like the game is almost over when i just started to play 2 hours ago.

Well i could probably say alot more but the point is Marathon for me hits the sweet spot where everything has its use and its just ultimatly a more fullfilling game/experience. As i think Mad Scientist said its more of a personal flavour than a challenge thing.

PS: Im a total noob when it comes to forums only joined galciv2 forum and only posted a couple times awhile ago. I know this is a great community so i think ill enjoy my time here...once i learn how to post.