What's the skinny on Musketmen?

[Roxlimn]

I liked them somewhat before the patches, and I like them better now, but they're still not bread-and-butter units. Not quite.

What's the community's take on the current status of Musketmen? What are they for, if any, and how do you use them? Input from all skill levels welcome.

I personally play on King (because I like winning all the time relatively easily, I confess) and by my reckoning, they could still use a little hammer reduction. Making them 10% cheaper than Longswordsmen would make them somewhat useful, and it jives with their historical significance.

 

[Ramanuga]

Knowing that they also get +1 sight, and in the case you do not have any iron for some reason, they would be really good when mixed with crosbows.

In my gamestyle, if I wouldn't make early rush but spam cities instead, I would produce some archers/catapults for defense, then upgrade them, and after getting to gunpowder, spam some of minuteman really fast with many cities and make an atack.
They should be really good for both offence and defense ignoring that terrain cost.
Later you can upgrade them and keep ignore terrain cost... If you get up to Mech. Infantry with blitz let's say, that would be awesome.

 

[Roxlimn]

Er, Minutemen are a UU for America, right? Glad for the input, but also concerned with the basic Musketmen unit.

 

[Ramanuga]

I might be thinking about Washington too much .

But even musketman would help if you don't have iron. Or if you have only little iron and want to use it for trebs. In that case I would still use the same tactic (if low on iron). But generally you are able to get enough of it from somewhere.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

Pretty much the only time I build musketmen is when I didn't have enough iron to build as many longswords as I would like or if I need to free up some iron for frigates, but for me by the time I'm getting frigates I either already have rifles or I'm very close. If I lose a longsword in combat I will usually build at musket to replace it though. That leaves me with more iron to use for other things or to sell.

 

[chazzycat]

They are really useful in some situations. For instance, if you get stuck on a small piece of land with little or no iron. You can build up & beeline gunpowder to go on the offensive with musketmen & Trebs, or much better, cannons. Some civs can take this to the extreme (the ottomans & France come to mind)

The latest patch has already made them more powerful than longswords, so they have a general role as front line troops as well. The issue is hard building them & lack of experience compared with your upgraded swords.

if I'm in the situation above where I really need them to go on the offensive, I try to make sure I have the barracks/armories set up by then. This helps compensate for the lack of experience.

If I already have a large number of upgraded longswords with good promos, I'll probably just build a few more musketmen as stopgaps to replace losses, and wait for rifles to upgrade the swords.

(I play on emperor/immortal)

 

[zuraffo]

The latest patch has already made them more powerful than longswords, so they have a general role as front line troops as well.

iirc, both musketman and longswords have the strength of 16.

The only time I ever build musketman is for Janissary or musketeer. That and if I have no iron, which sometimes happen when I play cultural.

Basically muskets function like a longsword that doesn't need iron but slightly more expensive.

 

[PScirocco]

It would probably make more sense (and historically accurate?) to have musketeer at 17 or 18 str, they should be able to beat longswordsmen regularly, but would lose when the LSM has experienced. In most games, by the time gunpowder is researched, most LSM already in play should have some promotions already.

I know that historically muskets were not that dominant on the battlefield, often losing more technologically backward armies, but I would argue that if both sides are evenly (un)trained, a musketman should be able to take on a (long)swordsman without too much problem.

 

[vexing]

aside from the unique versions, they're just a stepping stone to rifles.

 

[Roxlimn]

aside from the unique versions, they're just a stepping stone to rifles.

Would the basic Musketman unit be more viable if the hammer cost were reduced? If it were half cost, would you build them?

 

[chazzycat]

iirc, both musketman and longswords have the strength of 16.

The only time I ever build musketman is for Janissary or musketeer. That and if I have no iron, which sometimes happen when I play cultural.

Basically muskets function like a longsword that doesn't need iron but slightly more expensive.

You're right, my bad. The patch equaled them out, not make them stronger than longswords. I play France too much

 

[Ceterius]

if I'm in the situation above where I really need them to go on the offensive, I try to make sure I have the barracks/armories set up by then.

Barracks or armory help nothing with musketmen. Those buildings only benefit ranged units.

A musketman with 0 experience is at least as good as a musketman with 30 experience because of the "heal instantly" promotion.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

Barracks or armory help nothing with musketmen. Those buildings only benefit ranged units.

A musketman with 0 experience is at least as good as a musketman with 30 experience because of the "heal instantly" promotion.

What are you talking about Barracks and armory help all units now (even navy and air force). Just because you only use the "heal instantly" promotion doesn't mean that other people play the same way you do.

 

[chazzycat]

Barracks or armory help nothing with musketmen. Those buildings only benefit ranged units.

A musketman with 0 experience is at least as good as a musketman with 30 experience because of the "heal instantly" promotion.

You always use the first two promotions for healing instantly? That's interesting, is there any evidence that this is the smart play? I could see it working in some situations, but in general I prefer to get my units started with two solid promotions. They will get to march, city attack, or whatever goal much faster.

 

[Ceterius]

What are you talking about Barracks and armory help all units now (even navy and air force). Just because you only use the "heal instantly" promotion doesn't mean that other people play the same way you do.

Yes, barracks gives XP to land units but that helps only ranged units. A 0 XP musketman is as valuable as a 30 XP musketman when I send an army to fight. The ability to get instant heal promo faster is at least as worthwhile as Shock II or Drill II.

I use "heal instantly" promotion only if I need it to prevent from the unit from dying.

 

[chazzycat]

But shock & drill lead to other really good promotions. And your units might not be about to die, if you had upgraded them with the proper terrain-based promotion.

 

[Hasire]

Uhhh, no. You should never use heal instantly because it wastes exp. There are a few exceptions, but it is almost always better to have a unit with march/blitz than heal instantly.

 

[Ceterius]

But shock & drill lead to other really good promotions. And your units might not be about to die, if you had upgraded them with the proper terrain-based promotion.

30 XP doesn't make getting March and Blitz that much faster. But it denies you two opportunities to use Heal Instantly at 15 and 30 XP. You can also train your units free and easily to 30 XP killing barbarians.

Unless you're going to build Heroic Epic, barracks is only worthwhile building late in the game when you need to build artillery or air units.

 

[diz2]

Not a big user. This is one of the techs I tend to blow past.

There are a few techs I push to with the intent of using them to change the game balance. Most often these would be swords, rifles, artillery, bombers. I think getting these deployed first is a big opportunity to dish out some pain.

Musketmen are usually gained in the push to rifles, as swords/lonswords begin to wind down theirt push. (it used to be my goal to conquer my own continent with swords, but this is not necessarily possible I find after the patch)

Anyway, I tend not to be making a lot of units during this time, so not a lot of musketmen ever get used. Unless a war bogs down or I get attacked and some units are needed before I make it to riflemen.

 

[vexing]

A musketman with 0 experience is at least as good as a musketman with 30 experience because of the "heal instantly" promotion.

we're getting away from the discussion of musketmen but you should just turn promotion saving on.

regarding whether it is more valuable to use promotions for instant healing or work toward march depends on your long term goals:
if you're just going for some puppets to aid another victory condition instant heals are a lot more effective. in such a situation you will never get to march regardless, and having instant heals significantly speeds up taking cities without casualties.
if you're going for a domination victory, a more conservative approach and working to march will eventually speed up domination. it's an investment.

Would the basic Musketman unit be more viable if the hammer cost were reduced? If it were half cost, would you build them?

of course. the problem with musketmen as they are is they aren't a power gain over lsm or knights, come significantly later, and are just two techs from the significantly more powerful rifles