What's this Top 10% of Civs I hear about?

Though I wouldn't consider them a top Civ I always wondered why more people don't talk about the Danish UUs. They are very good IMO coupled with the UA

The Danish UU's aren't bad, but they aren't great either. They're melee units, which means they're used primarily as meat-shields. Can you use them offensively? Of course, but it's not as effective as using contemporary ranged/seige units. There's a reason why all of the top UU's in the game are ranged units. I find most melee UU's don't have a big enough impact on a game to warrant serious discussions about their benefits.
 
Well, you have top civs for their respective victory types, then you have top civs for an all-around start.

Science: Babylon, Korea

Domination: Zulu

Culture: Brazil, France

Diplomacy: Morocco


Then you have a ton of better all-around civs which some have mentioned. My personal favorite all-around civs are:
-Poland
-Persia
-Maya (my favorite of the favorites)
 
The top 10% is more a guideline. Any civ can have a good/bad go at things.

The one civ i really rate above all others is China, because it is so hard to mess up with it. Amazing defensive capabilities, easy early gold combined with incentive to boost science quick and more great generals. It is a perfect civ for beginners and can take advantage most situations

That doesn't mean it is better than the others of course; it has benefits that, in my opinion, make it harder to lose. Of course, not losing doesn't mean winning. :goodjob: I find it's quite a general civ and hence adaptable, where others can be highly specialized and this vulnerable in some situations and godly in others.

At the end of the day i've gotta give Firaxis some damn good credit for making the civs so hard to distinguish between in terms of raw ability.

If anyone is interest in creating an ACCURATE top 10% list, then what would be a good idea is logging all the games you play (to a finishing point, ie win screen or lose screen) and recording the end result (win or lose), turn (and speed) and score (and difficulty). Still hard to compare, but clearly those with lower average end scores, higher average turns, and a greater percentage of losses on a given speed and difficulty will be the bottom end and vica versa
 
The Danish UU's aren't bad, but they aren't great either. They're melee units, which means they're used primarily as meat-shields. Can you use them offensively? Of course, but it's not as effective as using contemporary ranged/seige units. There's a reason why all of the top UU's in the game are ranged units. I find most melee UU's don't have a big enough impact on a game to warrant serious discussions about their benefits.

They're not game-changing but they are very much above average because of the UA "no cost to pillage" which makes them much more powerful meat-shields and clean-up units compared to your average melee

That 25% hills and double movement for NSI is pretty awesome
 
Though I wouldn't consider them a top Civ I always wondered why more people don't talk about the Danish UUs. They are very good IMO coupled with the UA

Oh, I'm not saying they are top tier. It's just that they are quite better than people give them credit for. :)
 
They're not game-changing but they are very much above average because of the UA "no cost to pillage" which makes them much more powerful meat-shields and clean-up units

That 25% hills and double movement for NSI is pretty awesome

They're above-average, but how much does an above-average meat-shield really help you? Rotating a few melee units in and out of fire is usually sufficient. They don't drastically make Denmark a powerhouse in any particular era like CKN/CA/HA/Longbowman/Keshiks/SoTL do, so they don't get a whole lot of attention. The pillage aspect is really good, but when you include UA's in a UU discussion, then civs like the Inca come into play. And the Inca's movement bonus is applied to all units, not just some meat-shields.
 
The top 10% is more a guideline. Any civ can have a good/bad go at things.

The one civ i really rate above all others is China, because it is so hard to mess up with it. Amazing defensive capabilities, easy early gold combined with incentive to boost science quick and more great generals. It is a perfect civ for beginners and can take advantage most situations

That doesn't mean it is better than the others of course; it has benefits that, in my opinion, make it harder to lose. Of course, not losing doesn't mean winning. :goodjob: I find it's quite a general civ and hence adaptable, where others can be highly specialized and this vulnerable in some situations and godly in others.

At the end of the day i've gotta give Firaxis some damn good credit for making the civs so hard to distinguish between in terms of raw ability.

If anyone is interest in creating an ACCURATE top 10% list, then what would be a good idea is logging all the games you play (to a finishing point, ie win screen or lose screen) and recording the end result (win or lose), turn (and speed) and score (and difficulty). Still hard to compare, but clearly those with lower average end scores, higher average turns, and a greater percentage of losses on a given speed and difficulty will be the bottom end and vica versa

China is the only civ I consistently play that is guaranteed not to be complete horsehockyz. A lot of civs are specialized which I find tedious if the starting area is in a bad position. China has a great offensive Great General, powerful siege crossbowman, and a gold bonus that is really useful now that gold is strained.
 
They're above-average, but how much does an above-average meat-shield really help you? Rotating a few melee units in and out of fire is usually sufficient. They don't drastically make Denmark a powerhouse in any particular era like CKN/CA/HA/Longbowman/Keshiks/SoTL do, so they don't get a whole lot of attention. The pillage aspect is really good, but when you include UA's in a UU discussion, then civs like the Inca come into play. And the Inca's movement bonus is applied to all units, not just some meat-shields.

In Denmark's defense, their UA also gives movement bonuses to all units. Only the melee might pillage for free, and that is worth a lot of HP! Sometimes you don't have enough meatshields. One of the best uses of Den's UA is to disembark a bunch of Berserkers with some Trebuchets, explode the city with the trebuchets and make a quick way to the city whilst pillaging to regain some health (with the Berserkers). Your Berserker has 3 movement, so he can retreat more easier. Kind of a lightning warfare. You can also use Viking Fury for your Crossbowman to aid you: disembark and use the 5-6 movement (I don't remember how much is it for Den in the late medieval era, I think it's 5) to come near the city and shoot. Of course, retreating might be harder, but it's like a horse on bows. So, to make it clear: free pillaging is for melee, movement from embarkation is for everyone.
 
Well, you have top civs for their respective victory types, then you have top civs for an all-around start.

Science: Babylon, Korea

Domination: Zulu

Culture: Brazil, France

Diplomacy: Morocco


Then you have a ton of better all-around civs which some have mentioned. My personal favorite all-around civs are:
-Poland
-Persia
-Maya (my favorite of the favorites)
Morocco isn't the best diplomatic civ at all if you ask me. They make a bit more money but Venice and Portugal make even more, and good old Greece/Siam/Sweden all have their own ways to benefit more from patronage.
 
In Denmark's defense, their UA also gives movement bonuses to all units. Only the melee might pillage for free, and that is worth a lot of HP! Sometimes you don't have enough meatshields. One of the best uses of Den's UA is to disembark a bunch of Berserkers with some Trebuchets, explode the city with the trebuchets and make a quick way to the city whilst pillaging to regain some health. Your Berserker has 3 movement, so he can retreat more easier. Kind of a lightning warfare. You can also use Viking Fury for your Crossbowman to aid you: disembark and use the 5-6 movement (I don't remember how much is it for Den in the late medieval era, I think it's 5) to come near the city and shoot. Of course, retreating might be harder, but it's like a horse on bows. So, to make it clear: free pillaging is for melee, movement from embarkation is for everyone.

The embarkation bonus is personally my favorite part of their uniques. But would you rather have a crossbow that can disembark for free, or a crossbow that can move onto a hill and shoot on the same turn? They're both situational as they rely on terrain, but I'd wager that a hill is more common when attacking a city than a coastal tile is(that doesn't leave you wide open to the enemy). Or perhaps a SoTL with an additional 2 movement(and workers with 4 movement on the water :o).
 
Too bad most of these civs still get fd if they're stuck on an island with the zulus.
 
There aren't really any civs which are bad. It's just that most of them are average unless it's a particular situation. And so people claim that there is are "tiers". And nobody can agree, either.

Byzantium is devastating if it has a religion. The Ottomans are excellent on certain map types. The list cited has many extremely controversial placings; and the thread-starter admits that it's for Pangaea only. Trying to talk about this is ridiculous; it depends on the situation. All that the supposedly "good" civs signify is an ability to be all-round, or which fit someone's playstyle. Polynesia can be far more powerful than Arabia if used correctly.

India genuinely had a problem with mechanics, but since BNW that's been fixed. Otherwise, everything is reasonable balanced. People not being able to use civs does not make them bad. Just play who you like the look of best.

In fact, I'll go down the list and say exactly why each one can be brilliant (bear in mind my knowledge is pretty limited):

America: Similar to the Shoshone, but with a better capacity to respond and a with their expansion more geared towards the late-game.
Arabia: Killer trade-civ, with late-game dominance.
Assyria: Excellent early-game conquest civ, with the ability to get ahead in tech for a tech-culture late game. Interesting fusion.
Austria: This is situational on having lots of money. If you do, you can create a powerful and wide empire.
Aztecs: Like Assyria, but solely with culture. Alternatively, that culture can be fed back into Honour for a domination victory.
Babylon: Obviously, a science powerhouse.
Brazil: Situational on how many happiness-increasers you have access to. If you have enough, then you will dominate the culture game; but play small.
Byzantium: If they gain a religion (easier now in BNW), they are very deadly. One of my favourites, and not just because of my love of the Empire.
Carthage: With BNW, they are powerful and easily able to dominate the trade/diplomatic game. Also the mountains thing is cool.
Celts: Will dominate the faith game.
China: Can field a very powerful army. The Cho-Ko-Nu is also very tough.
Denmark: On an Archipelago/Small-Con, they can dominate the domination game, or else can devastate the enemy.
Egypt: Can be used in any way, with an abundance of wonders. Good all rounder, but with a little risk.
England: Archipelago/Small-Con domination game. Has excellent UUs.
Ethiopia: Another faith-game dominator, with the added ability of being able to concentrate less on army size.
France: Deadly in the late game. The Chateau is also powerful.
Germany: Gold and an easily attainable + large army. Beats the Zulus through the fact that it can gain a big army quicker.
Greece: Can attain the diplomatic victory easily. If it has patronage and commerce, it is unstoppable.
Huns: Great UUs. Go for an early domination victory, or lots of conquests followed by a science victory aided by the extra production.
Inca: Lots and lots of money. Great for a diplo-victory.
India: A bit bad in G+K, but fixed now. Great for going tall and cultured.
Indonesia: Will dominate a sea-based map in all ways. Has the best UU in the game.
Iroquois: Can build up a great early-game dominance, especially with money.
Japan: Has good UUs, and is very, very good at a conquest victory.
Korea: Another science powerhouse, with excellent UUs.
Maya: Free great people + the Pyramid mean that they are an all-round powerhouse with a great science advantage. (I'll concede that these ones are a tad OP).
Mongolia: Combination of their great UUs and the ability to quickly build up a large CS-empire means that they can either conquer the world or stunt the victories of others.
Morocco: Pretty obvious; a gold-powerhouse, with some good culture + ability to turn the desert into something profitable.
Netherlands: Situational placing, but you never need worry about happiness again. Consequently, can become a culture or domination powerhouse.
Ottomans: Domination archipelago + Janissary, one of the best UUs in the game.
Persia: You can get up a permanent golden age pretty easily. My favourite civ pre-BNW.
Poland: Dominates culture or domination.
Polynesia: Can A) dominate the world congress, or B) dominate the culture game. More suited to archipelago or continents.
Portugal: Gold powerhouse (with the best musical theme in the game).
Rome: Great for going wide.
Russia: Very flexible, though situational.
Shoshone: Like America, but more suited to the early game. Plus, the pathfinder!
Siam: Cultural powerhouse. One of my favourites.
Songhai: Gold and war is good.
Spain: Very, very situational; but in the right situation, can be oh so powerful.
Sweden: Lots of GPs? With BNW, they are very good.
Venice: So much money. Very good for culture/diplomacy.
Zulu: Large, large army. Though not as easily attainable as Germany, can reach a higher number.
 
The embarkation bonus is personally my favorite part of their uniques. But would you rather have a crossbow that can disembark for free, or a crossbow that can move onto a hill and shoot on the same turn? They're both situational as they rely on terrain, but I'd wager that a hill is more common when attacking a city than a coastal tile is(that doesn't leave you wide open to the enemy). Or perhaps a SoTL with an additional 2 movement(and workers with 4 movement on the water :o).

Well, the Danes might use their Crossbows with 4-5 movement to go up on that hill and shoot :p AND they can embark some fast workers. And those workers might disembark, go up on a hill and improve on the same turn or earlier than England :p I agree, though, that the Danes require some water. BUT, you can also use the lakes, and most of the map types have at least some lakes (except Skirmish, I guess). I agree that they are more situational than the Incas (but IMO, they are just as "situational" as England, still both of them do nicely even on Pangaea). Also, because of the Danish fast units, they can get on tiles with forest and hills for the 25%? defensive bonus too. All in all, I'm also biased because I love playing the Danes! It just makes combat easier and cooler! If I have the opportunity to embark and disembark some units, I'll use it for the giant extra movement. One of the best things to do is getting a Berserker to disembark on enemy territory, move half of their available movement into the enemy's lands while pillaging and go back to the water by another route, pillaging other tiles. They are just so fun and can be very useful :)

Also, remember when the disembarked units ignored ZOC? That was insane. It was before the fall patch, though, so those units wouldn't get the 25HP from Pillaging.
 
Well, the Danes might use their Crossbows with 4-5 movement to go up on that hill and shoot :p AND they can embark some fast workers. And those workers might disembark, go up on a hill and improve on the same turn or earlier than England :p I agree, though, that the Danes require some water. BUT, you can also use the lakes, and most of the map types have at least some lakes (except Skirmish, I guess). I agree that they are more situational than the Incas (but IMO, they are just as "situational" as England, still both of them do nicely even on Pangaea). Also, because of the Danish fast units, they can get on tiles with forest and hills for the 25%? defensive bonus too. All in all, I'm also biased because I love playing the Danes! It just makes combat easier and cooler! If I have the opportunity to embark and disembark some units, I'll use it for the giant extra movement. One of the best things to do is getting a Berserker to disembark on enemy territory, move half of their available movement into the enemy's lands while pillaging and go back to the water by another route, pillaging other tiles. They are just so fun and can be very useful :)

Also, remember when the disembarked units ignored ZOC? That was insane. It was before the fall patch, though, so those units wouldn't get the 25HP from Pillaging.

Errr, I don't recall Denmark ever receiving extra movement points to their other units. I checked the civilopedia and it doesn't list that as one of their abilities either.
 
Errr, I don't recall Denmark ever receiving extra movement points to their other units. I checked the civilopedia and it doesn't list that as one of their abilities either.

Embarking doesn't cost their units movement. What this ends up doing is they get to keep their embarked movement points meaning catapults and stuff can go onto land, set up and shoot. Very powerful.
 
Embarking doesn't cost their units movement. What this ends up doing is they get to keep their embarked movement points meaning catapults and stuff can go onto land, set up and shoot. Very powerful.

He was saying that crossbows get 4-5 movement points, allowing them to traverse hills.
 
He was saying that crossbows get 4-5 movement points, allowing them to traverse hills.

I mean this as if, say, your EMBARKED crossbowman has 5 movement, you use one of them to disembark and have 4 movement to use on your tiles. You could go up a forested hill and shoot. Sorry if I didn't state it correctly. I can confirm that all units, and not only melee, receive the "Only spend 1 movement to disembark.

Let me try to explain this better.

The UA: Viking Fury - Embarked units have +1 Movement and pay just 1 movement point to move from sea to land. Melee units pay no movement point cost to pillage.

Ok. Upon researching Optics, your units might embark. When embarked, they have 2 :c5moves: . If you are Denmark, they have 3 :c5moves: . This apply to all units. So, there are some techs (like Astronomy and Steam Power) that increase the embarked movement by 1 :c5moves: , so if we're talking about a post-Astronomy Crossbowman, it has 4 :c5moves: when embarked. I think you could enhance that with the Great Lighthouse, but I'm not 100% sure its bonuses apply to embarked units, so let's ignore it.

Embarked Crossbowman - 4 :c5moves:

Now, we disembark the unit: because of the UA, we pay only 1 :c5moves: . So, our Crossbowman (let's say it was adjacent to a coastal tile) pays the movement and now has 3 :c5moves: to use wherever he disembarked into. With 3 movement, you can go up on a hill and still shoot. That's what I meant, it was quite confusing, I bet. Sorry :p

Also, I think the GL bonus applies to embarked units... and that Commerce or Exploration policy, I'm not , that gives +1 move/+1sight to naval units applies too, methinks. I'm not sure and will test this later. In the end, it can be really powerful! Assuming all the bonuses apply:

2 :c5moves: Optics + 1 :c5moves: Viking Fury + 1:c5moves: Astronomy + 1 :c5moves: Steam Power + 1 :c5moves: GL +1 :c5moves: Policy = 7 :c5moves: by the industrial era. 5 if the GL and policy doesn't apply. Very powerful. Specially with N. Ski Infantry with double speed on hills. Imagine that with the Mt. Kilimanjaro! :D
 
I mean this as if, say, your EMBARKED crossbowman has 5 movement, you use one of them to disembark and have 4 movement to use on your tiles. You could go up a forested hill and shoot. Sorry if I didn't state it correctly. I can confirm that all units, and not only melee, receive the "Only spend 1 movement to disembark.

Ah, okay. But that makes their movement even more situational, requiring a coastal hill near a city. Note that I don't think that their UA is weak, but I don't think their UU(in conjunction with their UA) is worthy enough to create serious discussions about how they make Denmark an OP civ in the X era.
 
Ah, okay. But that makes their movement even more situational, requiring a coastal hill near a city. Note that I don't think that their UA is weak, but I don't think their UU(in conjunction with their UA) is worthy enough to create serious discussions about how they make Denmark an OP civ in the X era.

Oh, it is situational. I'd be scared of a Berserker+Trebuchet rush if I had some cities near the coast. Still, the UA is great for Archi maps when you are invading or even colonizing, your workers can improve things quite fast. I know Denmark isn't OP, but it makes moving by water so much better than going by land! In my last Danish game, I basically spent the whole game moving units by the coast. Tasty ability. This conversation made me want to play a game as them right now :D

You don't neeeed a hill, though. Could use Jungle or Forests, could use none. This UA makes for creative rushes. I'm very fond of using lakes too! I won't argue that it makes the civ OP by the late medieval-early renaissance era, because it doesn't, but it aids your civ on a very positive way. Also, check my last post - I edited to clarify some things. I'll see if the bonus :c5moves: by the Industrial can get to 7. It'd be awesome. Still, they're better than most people give credit for. Haven't played them post BNW yet, and they're not part of the 10% top tier, but they aren't bad either
 
Oh, it is situational. I'd be scared of a Berserker+Trebuchet rush if I had some cities near the coast. Still, the UA is great for Archi maps when you are invading or even colonizing, your workers can improve things quite fast. I know Denmark isn't OP, but it makes moving by water so much better than going by land! In my last Danish game, I basically spent the whole game moving units by the coast. Tasty ability. This conversation made me want to play a game as them right now :D

You don't neeeed a hill, though. Could use Jungle or Forests, could use none. This UA makes for creative rushes. I'm very fond of using lakes too! I won't argue that it makes the civ OP by the late medieval-early renaissance era, because it doesn't, but it aids your civ on a very positive way. Also, check my last post - I edited to clarify some things. I'll see if the bonus :c5moves: by the Industrial can get to 7. It'd be awesome. Still, they're better than most people give credit for. Haven't played them post BNW yet, and they're not part of the 10% top tier, but they aren't bad either

I was just responding to the part where you asked why people don't discuss their UU's often. If you think about, most of the discussions about civs/UU's are only if they're severely over/under-powered. That's why in G&K(BNW is too new), much of the discussions were about Babylon/Korea/Arabia/China/Maya/Ethiopia because of how strong they were. India/Japan/India/Byzantine/Spain/India(did I say them yet :p) were also talked about because of how weak or inconsistent they were compared to the norm. The same thing happened with UU's. Since Denmark's UU's aren't spectacular(nor it's UA), there weren't many discussions about them.
 
Top Bottom