Why are Israelis/Jewish people standoffish?

Nomnomnom

Zzzzzzz
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I've noticed that many Jewish people that I know seem to take offence to any and all criticisms toward Israel. I even see this on the forums here. I am not an anti Semite but I am treated like one for even suggesting that on a few issues Israel is at fault. What is their problem? :confused: Is it a prevailing attitude among Jews that they cannot possibly be at fault?

(No Jewish hate)
 
I've noticed that many Jewish people that I know seem to take offence to any and all criticisms toward Israel. I even see this on the forums here. I am not an anti Semite but I am treated like one for even suggesting that on a few issues Israel is at fault. What is their problem? :confused: Is it a prevailing attitude among Jews that they cannot possibly be at fault?

(No Jewish hate)

I'm not a Jew, but really is it any wonder why they might react the way they react?

I really hope Israel gets a swift kick in the pants one day. They are one of the biggest bullies around these days xD
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9297983&postcount=13
 
They take offense to it because you are insulting the hard work they had to do to live in the land that has belonged to them for thousands of years despite the fact that the majority of them are Ashkenazi (European) and have virtually no relation to the Semites who lived in Palestine centuries ago.
 
I was simply stating that the current Israeli government seems to believe they can bully the rest of the Middle East. Iran and others pose no real threat to Israel but they continue to play the victim card. Their actions lead me to think they need a "swift kick in the pants". It doesn't have to be violent though.
 
Muslims sometimes take offence when you say you support Israel, too.
 
I support any and all solutions that end in everyone being happy. Of course that will never happen :lol:
 
Dude, get real. I've seen on this very forum people claim that a poster showing evil "Israelis" with pointy teeth and ears and a mouthful of blood were not anti-semitic. I've seen people on this forum claim that historically, for the last thousand years the Jews were the oppressors and not the oppressed.

It is a fact clear as sunlight that many anti-semites hide their hatred of Jews in the PC and socially acceptable bashing of Israel. Of course there are valid reasons to criticize Israel, and of course not all critics of Israel are anti-semites. But they are plentiful.

And their defense nowadays is pretty much always : "oh poor me I can't even bash Jews errr I mean criticize Israel in peace without being called an anti-semite!"
 
To be fair luiz, you gotta admit that most of the people criticizing Israel these days are not anti-semites.

I am not so sure. The criticism of Israel in the Muslim World (which is Israel's biggest critic, after all) is profoundly anti-semitic. In the West it is more confused.
 
Even Jews who complain about obvious Israeli atrocities are labelled as being "anti-Semitic" by some of the Zionists. To these people, even Noam Chomsky is an "anti-Semite"!

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-30.htm

Alan Dershowitz considers Chomsky "the intellectual godfather" of the anti-Israel campaign, mentioning that Chomsky seeks the abolition of the state of Israel.18 This makes Chomsky an anti-Semite according to the definitions of both Cotler and the Berlin Anti-Semitism Center, as he expresses views that define Israel as a state fundamentally distinct from all others in a negative sense.

Chomsky also wrote an introduction to a book by the French Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson.19 Yet his reputation has survived internationally among many.20 Chomsky's systematic role in promoting hatred of Israel has impacted many others. When analyzing academic discrimination of Israel, one finds direct or indirect indications of his influence in many places. One is that among those active in the academic boycott of Israel, linguists seem disproportionately represented. This concerns both Jews and non-Jews. Some examples are the aforementioned Tanya Reinhart as well as Francesco Gatti21 and Rodolfo Delmonteboth of Cà Foscari University in Venice. A disproportionate number of linguists at Harvard and MIT have signed anti-Israel petitions.23 One organizer of a campus divestment campaign was Uri Strauss, a citizen of Canada and Israel and a graduate linguistics student at the University of Massachusetts.24

And even the "Jewish press" is "anti-Semitic" if they dare to criticize Israeli policies:

Jewish journals sometimes print essays of Jewish authors using anti-Semitic arguments. The American magazine Tikkun published an article by Joel Kovel, the Alger Hiss Professor of Social Studies at Bard College (NY). Kovel calls Israel a racist state that "because it automatically generates crimes against humanity and lacks the internal means of correcting them, cannot have that legitimacy which gives it the right to exist."33 He also compares the Zionist state to the Nazi state.34

Tony Judt, Director of the Remarque Institute at New York University, de-legitimizes Israel in a different way. "Israel is…a Jewish state in which one community - Jews - is set above others, in an age when that sort of state has no place."35 In his reply to Judt, Leon Wieseltier, the literary editor of the New Republic, claimed Judt considers all Jews responsible for each other's behavior. He argues this is not a Zionist notion but an anti-Semitic one.36

And Israelis who oppose this holy crusade against Muslims by the far-right?

Jewish self-hatred manifests itself in Israel as well. It is confined mainly to people outside the mainstream of society. Systematic research covering anti-Semitic texts in Israeli society will illustrate this.41 The World Jewish Congress drew attention to this phenomenon: "Certainly, a most disturbing element in the present situation is the fact that certain extreme left-wing Israeli organizations are often operating in concert with the Arabs in such campaigns and even orchestrating them."42
 
I am not so sure. The criticism of Israel in the Muslim World (which is Israel's biggest critic, after all) is profoundly anti-semitic. In the West it is more confused.

And even in Europe anti-semitic crimes are hitting record highs.
 
I am not so sure. The criticism of Israel in the Muslim World (which is Israel's biggest critic, after all) is profoundly anti-semitic. In the West it is more confused.

Confused or not, most people from the west who criticize Israel are not anti-semites.

I should have specified I meant the west - most of the criticism of Israel I see originates from the West (but I don't read muslim media or interact with Muslims on a regular basis, so I don't have enough exposure to that part of the world to really comment)
 
Confused or not, most people from the west who criticize Israel are not anti-semites.
You aren't going to convince those who have decided to use this obvious propaganda ploy to try to attack the credibility of their critics instead of addressing the obvious issues.
 
You aren't going to convince those who have decided to use this obvious propaganda ploy to try to attack the credibility of their critics instead of addressing the obvious issues.

Precisely. I am tired of Jewish people pulling the anti Semite card rather than actually debating the issues.
 
The entire situation is poison right now. There are plenty diaspora Jews who are highly critical of all kinds of present Israeli policies.

These days however there's such a heck of a lot of people — coming from all over the spectrum of opinions about Israel, or just Jews in general — that even Jews critical of Israel finds themselves either keeping mum, so as not to end up somehow adding to a torrent of abuse heaped on Israel, some of it definitely anti-semitic. Or they even find themselves jumping to Israel's defense, because the wall of criticism of the country is just so massive.
 
Although, as stated before, there are many, many non-Israeli jews who think objectively about and are critical of Israel, the jewish culture has a sort of exceptionalist mentality which can manifest itself in peoples self conscious and Israel is a perfect symbol for that exceptionality.

IMHO.
 
Confused or not, most people from the west who criticize Israel are not anti-semites.

I'm sorry but based on what?

Various European countries have been experiencing record high anti-semitism and the efforts to tackle this hate is really lacklustre. We even have cases of politicians openly blaming (Ilmar Reepalu mayor of Malmö) the Jews of their own country for the anti-semitism they face because they don't condemn Israel loudly enough. And often the people in the west who criticise Israel are allied to the very same people who are behind this increase in anti-semitism and find very little reason to criticise these anti-semites. For example, there is information even from non-Jewish sources that there was real hate, racism and anti-semitism among the members of the Freedom Flotilla yet we have heard no distancing to those elements by the so called real not anti-semite peace activists.

I'll admit its all circumstancial but I have to question the validity of your claim.
 
I'm sorry but based on what?
Based on actual documented cases of anti-Semitism by the ADL itself, instead of innuendos and speculation?

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/5537_12.htm

New York, NY, June 1, 2009 … The number of anti-Semitic incidents in the United States declined for the fourth consecutive year, according to newly issued statistics from the Anti-Defamation League (ADL). The League's annual Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents, issued today, counted a total of 1,352 incidents of vandalism, harassment and physical assaults against Jewish individuals, property and community institutions in 2008, representing a 7 percent decline from the 1,460 incidents reported in 2007.

The Audit identified 37 physical assaults on Jewish individuals, 702 incidences of anti-Semitic vandalism, and 613 cases of harassment in 2008. They included acts against high-profile Jewish community institutions and communal properties, such as the repeated vandalism of the San Francisco Holocaust Memorial, and the desecration of dozens of graves at a Jewish cemetery in Chicago with swastikas and hate group symbols.

Zionists have claimed for decades that being anti-Zionist is anti-Semitic. And back in the 60s when even Martin Luther King equated the two it was largely true. But since then, the people who have been criticizing Zionist policies have not been anti-Semites for the most part. They are quite normal people who have finally had enough of looking the other way when Israel has acted as just as badly, or even worse, than their supposed arch-enemies. So the old tactic of crying anti-Semitic wolf no longer works.

A year ago, Americans were reluctant to discuss Zionism or anti-Zionism or read the stuff, even "moderate Arabs and Muslims" (whatever that means) , shied away from the communities around these two camps and lacked the strength to support the few that might have had, the guts to stand up and confront real controversy.

There are hundreds of journalists who would not want to go within twenty miles of an anti-Zionist for fear of being castigated as questionable and "controversial characters" because this was how most of the rest of the Industry responds to them (the Messenger) against what had become a very successful adhominem attack intended to destroy their effectiveness by attacking their credibility. He is an… (fill in the blanks with any epithet you wish to choose from the (Anti Defamation League ) ADL's List Of Epithets Recommended For Use In Order To Destroy The Credibility of Critics.

Therefore, one could rarely ever quote or identify an anti-Zionist, eg: Israel Shamir, but simply crib from his message, the truth and logic of his arguments, and present them as a weapon in defense of the truth.

On the other hand, American-Israeli academicians and historians have spent a lifetime knowingly or unknowingly academically helping the Zionists. Now in the past one year there seems to be a growing awareness in the U.S. and the world and ADL (Anti Defamation League) have started crying Wolf LOUD… "anti-semitism" as they call it has been on the rise. It is obviously NOT anti-Semitism, even though they have always called it that and, for decades it has successfully stilled a lot of legitimate criticism of Israel's policies. I think the world is becoming aware that this is not Anti-Semitism, anti-racism, or any of the bigotry terms which ADL, The Simon Wiesenthal Centre, and the other "defenders," including their legal staffs who bring suit, and political arm-twisters who force legislation throughout the world have been calling it, and we are just hearing more reasonable and legitimate criticism of a system which ought to be criticised and discussed more openly in public, in the public interest.

And, I believe we are seeing and hearing more of it because more of the public are realizing this daily.

And, I also believe that the "defenders." are screaming like stuck pigs and those "defenders" are using the only tools they know how, which have worked so well for so many years, but which are rapidly losing their edge from overuse, mis-use and abuse, the misapplied and false charges of slanderous bigotry and anti-semitism.
The tide of worldwide public opinion is finally turning against Israel. They have had a privileged position until now due to the atrocities committed against Jews in WWII back when there actually was rampant anti-Semitism. But that tactic no longer works because anti-Semites now represent an extremely small minority of the population instead of what used to be majorities in some parts of the world.

Anti-Semitism still exists, and it likely will as long as there are bigots and racists in this world. But it simply isn't the large-scale problem it was 60 years ago when places like Pass-A-Grille, Florida did not allow Jews to live there or hotels in New Orleans publicly did not allow Jews to stay there.
 
We even have cases of politicians openly blaming (Ilmar Reepalu mayor of Malmö) the Jews of their own country for the anti-semitism they face because they don't condemn Israel loudly enough.
About Sweden and antisemitism — the real problem is that for decades there's been so little of it publicly expressed, people no longer recognise it. Worse, even those who end up resorting to making antisemitic statements, like Reepalu, literally don't realise what they are saying.

Big problem with Reepalu, and a bunch of other Swedish politicians — had a liberal MP blogging after the convoy-debacle about the perfidity of the Jews as "The Chosen People" behaving badly against non-Jews — is that they revert to tropes of thinking and arguing that are antisemitic without realising.

When called on it, they are absolutely astounded, and most of them are very quick to retract the offending statement. (Reepalu was different in that respect, but he really is an idiot who still doesn't understand the implications of his words.)

Reeplau otoh is a Social Democrat, the party that created an honest to goodness specific government agency, The Forum For Living History, specifically to inform the public about the Holocaust and antisemitism, so if official political action against antisemitism is looked for, there it is.

(That thing is otoh a bad idea for what it says about a political will to proscribe history-writing, even if directed against antisemitism. That such an enetity is politically created can also be seen as an indictment of the state of the public discussion of antisemitism — which I think is the root of the problem, except the problem being less a presence recognisable traditional antisemitism, there is virtually none, but rather a staggering ignorance of it as a result of its seeming public disappearence in post-WWII Sweden..)

Still, a Swedish historian working on the history of Holocaust-revisionism in Sweden a couple of years ago noticed the Swedish Democrats (anti-immigration nationalists, very anti-Islam) also slagging off the "Internationalists" on their webpage. He actually circulated this info to the various established political parties, asking what they thought was meant by "Internationalists". Lots of confused but inventive suggestions were made, but not one instance of spotting that this is a traditional and established antisemitic way of referring to Jews in general.

One of the astonishing revelations of the stink over the article appearing in the Culture section of the Aftonbladet tabloid a year or so ago, seriously insinuating Israel was robbing organs from Palestinians it killed, was that the writer of said article was honestly completely oblivious to the very old antisemitic tradition of blood-libel against Jews. Seriously, he was. To the point of admitting that he would have written it very differently had he know what kind of associations it would dredge up. (I know from experience some Israelis who have a very hard time getting their heads around such massive ignorance of this matter, tending to rather assume it was all in bad faith. Otoh, considering what a disaster the blood-libel connotations was for his general argument, killing its credibility stone-dead, the writer really had nothing to gain. He should of course be tarred and feathered for that kind of culpable ignorance.)

Another Swedish historian, Henrik Bachner, has analysed how radical left-wing movements in the 60's and 70's picked up a lot of the traditional antisemitic arsenal of tropes and expressions in their criticism of Israel.

There is at times a disturbing blurring of the lines between specific criticism of Israel and general antisemitic attitudes coming out of the radical left. The Nazis and right-wing antisemitic nationalist nutters are usually easy to spot. And that's part of the problem. In Sweden no one has for decades been publicly visible slagging off Jews according to the known model of Nazi, just right-wing, or traditonal religious antisemitism. (Well, there is Ahmed Rahmi and his never-say-die seriously conspiracy-theorist website Radio Islam, since it used to be a local radio show in Stockholm in the 80's, but has since been forced off the air, onto the internet.) To the point where literally generations of the public and politicians alike no longer knows what that sounds and looks like, unless they have a specific historic interest.

The disturbing thing is rather the way in which antisemitic tropes and expressions have crept into the radical left. It's much more insidious as it has gone mostly unnoticed. What it otoh doesn't constitute is a an essential part of their ideological outlook, or a consistent view of "race" in any other way. It's more of a bunch of bad, very bad, habits of thought and expression.
 
When people want your nation to pretty much be overrun(at least that's how they interpret anti-Israel sentiment), of course they're going to be standoffish.

I'm not going to debate who's wrong and who's right in the war. They're doomed to fight forever due to a perpetual cycle of violence of neither trusting the other enough to stop fighting on both sides.

But, obviously, if you live in Israel, you're going to be offended when they don't support Israel. That's how it is with just about any nation; nationalism breeds a "with us or against us" mentality all too often. Naturally, some will interpret pro-Palestinian independence as "Israel must be destroyed."

Which makes sense, as Israel is North Korea's wet dream: a society under siege from all sides(though closer to reality than NK's insanity), but with effective military power. Not to mention a first-class lifestyle. So with a similar mentality, many Israelis believe the world to be against them, so it makes sense your positions are distorted if you're not outright supporters.
 
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