Why are Israelis/Jewish people standoffish?

[Formaldehyde]

One of the astonishing revelations of the stink over the article appearing in the Culture section of the Aftonbladet tabloid a year or so ago, seriously insinuating Israel was robbing organs from Palestinians it killed..

As it turned out that allegation wasn't all that far-fetched. They just had the time period incorrect:

In December 2009, Israel admitted that, in the 1980s and 1990s, there had been organ harvesting of skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from dead bodies of Israeli soldiers, citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers at the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute without the permission from relatives.[6] The revelation was a consequence of the Aftonbladet-Israel controversy.[7][8] Israel states that the institute in question ended such practice sometime around the year 2000.

And they still haven't really explained why they performed autopsies on a number of Palestinians killed during military operations which gave the perception the practice was ongoing, instead of discontinued in 2000 as the Israeli government now alleges after finally claiming responsibility for past acts.

Furthermore, Israeli health insurance will still even apparently pay the costs of illegally purchasing donor organs.

National health insurance schemes turn a blind eye. Israel's participates in the costs of purchasing organs abroad, though only subject to rigorous vetting of the sources of the donation. Still, a May 2001 article in a the New York Times Magazine, quotes "the coordinator of kidney transplantation at Hadassah University Hospital in Jerusalem (as saying that) 60 of the 244 patients currently receiving post-transplant care purchased their new kidney from a stranger - just short of 25 percent of the patients at one of Israel's largest medical centers participating in the organ business".

Many Israelis - attempting to avoid scrutiny - travel to east Europe, accompanied by Israeli doctors, to perform the transplantation surgery. These junkets are euphemistically known as "transplant tourism". Clinics have sprouted all over the benighted region. Israeli doctors have recently visited impoverished Macedonia, Bulgaria, Kosovo and Yugoslavia to discuss with local businessmen and doctors the setting up of kidney transplant clinics.

 

[Verbose]

When people want your nation to pretty much be overrun(at least that's how they interpret anti-Israel sentiment), of course they're going to be standoffish.

Only now you're doing it! I.e. failing to clearly differentiate between diaspora Jews and Israelis.

Big problem right now is how diaspora Jews are being pestered to come out for or against Israel, as if they had any kind of principal responsibility in the matter. A number of situations (like the Swedish Reepalu-affair) is specifically about people failing to uphold that crucial differentiation — either directly requesting "their" Jews to speak out against Israel, or just failing to uphold the principle that such demands are untowards to make of a local Jewish minority (which is where Reepalu failed).

Otoh the Netanyahu government in Israel would seem to be doing exactly the same thing — assuming all diaspora Jews must rally to Israel, or even move there asap, as the world in general is against the Jews, and only Israel can be relied on to protect them.

 

[Verbose]

As it turned out that allegation wasn't all that far-fetched. They just had the time period incorrect:

Have you read it?

Imo it's still a POS article based on inuendo. Which makes matters worse, as there is an actual story that needs to be seriously dealt with.

 

[Rumilus]

About Sweden and antisemitism — the real problem is that for decades there's been so little of it publicly expressed, people no longer recognise it. Worse, even those who end up resorting to making antisemitic statements, like Reepalu, literally don't realise what they are saying.

Something I find myself asking over your post.

Isn't Sweden really big on anti-racism? Shouldn't generalisations towards a religious group be something that people know how to identify? Are the anti-semitistic remarks really that different from your usual anti-immigrant or anti-muslim remarks? Had for example Reepalu said what he said about muslims instead of jews I have very hard time believing it would have resulted into anything else other than really swift political suicide.

 

[luiz]

@Verbose: excellent and very informing posts.

@Everyone else: read Formaldehyde's posts and see how I was right.

 

[Tee Kay]

And Formaldehyde proves that the majority of Israel's critics are anti-Semetic exactly how?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Have you read it?

Imo it's still a POS article based on inuendo. Which makes matters worse, as there is an actual story that needs to be seriously dealt with.

That "POS article" caused the real story of the actual atrocities to emerge and even be officially finally admitted by Israel. Who knows if the facts would have otherwise ever been divulged?

@Everyone else: read Formaldehyde's posts and see how I was right.

How are you "right" by me clearly showing that Israelis have actually taken organs without donor permision in the past and apparently still pay for organlegging with their national insurance plan despite it clearly being illegal to do so?

 

[Eli]

It's very simple.

All of you know that 9 Turks were killed by Israeli soldiers during the boarding of the Marmara. The world can't stop talking about it.

Whenever, in the course of the daily friction in Gaza and the West Bank, a Palestinian happens to be killed, it's mentioned in every news outlet.

Whenever an Israeli operation ends up with some casualties on the other side, it stays in the news for days. The world condemns, the UN investigates, the tolerant people of Europe call for boycotts.

A few days ago Turkey admitted it killed 130 Kurds in Iraq in the last month. It was mentioned in the press, I think. A nice, small side note.

****

For years Israel was doing aerial targeted killings on Palestinian terrorists. Most of the time causing no collateral damage, sometimes causing some. Rarely - there was a mistake and some civilians got killed as well.

Israel was vilified for this policy by everyone. Every such killing stayed on the news for days.

Today, almost weekly there surfaces a report about a US drone killing this or that guy in Pakistan or Afghanistan, together with a couple dozen other people. It gets mentioned in the news of course, nothing more.

****

Israel is blockading Gaza.

So does Egypt - but I don't see the world complaining about that.

****

Thousands are dying in Darfur. Thousands are starving in North Korea. Dozens of Iraqis are killed every day.

No one cares when brown people die. No one cares when brown people kill other brown people. But no Jew may raise his hand.

****

One state is treated as if it's the devil. Every act it does is put in the worst light possible, when actions which are worse by far are constantly committed by other states get ignored. Just count the number of threads on CFC on every such event...

That state is the only Jewish state in the world.

Antisemitism? Yes.

 

[Verbose]

Something I find myself asking over your post.

Isn't Sweden really big on anti-racism? Shouldn't generalisations towards a religious group be something that people know how to identify? Are the anti-semitistic remarks really that different from your usual anti-immigrant or anti-muslim remarks? Had for example Reepalu said what he said about muslims instead of jews I have very hard time believing it would have resulted into anything else other than really swift political suicide.

It is big on anti-racism. But no, they're not sensitive to it. Call it a paradox if you like.

Reepalu's tack on the matter was one of practical convenience. He was faced by a number of strident voices from within the rather larger Muslim community in his native Malmö, of which he is the mayor, laying into the local Jewish community over the Israeli Cast Lead operation against Gaza. Like all Swedish conciliatory consensus politicians his political instinct was to suggest the Jewish community outspokenly distance themselves from the Israeli operation and policies. Just so everyone could get along.

His failing was to realise there was a principle at stake, according to which minorities must be defended from being forced into the position where they have to take on collective responsibility for an entire perceived group. Here the Jewish community as individuals had nothing to do with Israel, and their right as individuals to not have to answer for Israel must be upheld. Iirc from how I've heard him defend himself he apparently still doesn't quite understand the fundamental problem, since he was just making suggestions to try to smoothen things out and have everyone get along.

The conflict-shy collective-oriented Swedish social culture isn't actually helping in this instance. Personally I think Reepalu should be forced to resign over his brain-fart, but apparently that won't happen.

And no, just like in this case, had some local Muslim minority been asked by a local politician to make stance against something like Salafist terrorism, it would probably also have been considered unseemly by some, but hardly have resulted in anything more. A certain percentage of Swedes, the 3-4% or so inclined to vote Swedish Democrats would openly applaude it.

There is fair amount of Islamophobia in Sweden. Rather more open than any negative attitudes towards Jews in general. I don't have time to go into THAT entire bag of rot right now though.
In all its history Sweden has never had an antisemitic one-issue party get into parliament. It might get an anti-islamic one soon though.

 

[Verbose]

Antisemitism? Yes.

Well, we can certainly come to use the world like that.

Me, I think that would be an unwanted cheapening of it.

 

[Eli]

Well, we can certainly come to use the world like that.

Me, I think that would be an unwanted cheapening of it.

Let's go with Wikipedia's "Antisemitism is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews".

Singling out the only Jewish state in the world fits the definition.

 

[Formaldehyde]

A few days ago Turkey admitted it killed 130 Kurds in Iraq in the last month. It was mentioned in the press, I think. A nice, small side note.

Actually, Turkey "admitted" to killing 130 PKK rebels in Turkey and Northern Iraq who continue to engage in terrorist acts which have apparently killed 40,000 people so far.

http://en.trend.az/regions/met/turkey/1706904.html

The PKK have intensified attacks on the Turkish security forces recently, killing dozens of Turkish soldiers during the last two months.

The PKK took up arms in 1984 to create an ethnic homeland in southeastern Turkey and has been listed as a terrorist organization by the Turkish government, the United States and the European Union.

Some 40,000 people have been killed in conflicts fuelled by PKK 's separatist campaign in Turkey.

Can you imagine what Israel would do if Palestinian "terrorists" killed 40,000 people?

Let's go with Wikipedia's "Antisemitism is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews".

Singling out the only Jewish state in the world fits the definition.

And criticizing completely absurd US foreign policy means you are an anti-American.

 

[Eli]

First, I specifically stated that this piece of news was indeed published, so you don't have to point it out. What I do wonder is how little press it has received.

Second, I actually laughed out loud now.

How easily did you accept the Turkish claims... Did you (or anyone in the media) bothered to check how many of the casualties were civilians? Have you noticed that, in your own words, the Kurds are terrorists while the Palestinians are "terrorists"? What was the pretext to the Turkish attack? Why are the Kurds fighting?

You haven't even bothered to check who were those 40,000 people killed. 32,000 of them were Kurds killed by Turkey!

A thread about Israel cannot last for two posts before someone denies it's very right to exist, and here you blindingly accept Turkey's right to invade another country and kill dozens of men, not even bothering to check the simplest facts!

Also, it's not polite to answer to just part of a post. I believe I made some points about Darfur, targetted killings and North Korea.

And criticizing completely absurd US foreign policy means you are an anti-American.

If all you do is rave against everything the US does while ignoring, say, the Russian war in Chechnya, the Iranians acquirement of Nuclear Weapons, the Darfur genocide and the North Korean attack against the South Korean ship, then yes, you're anti-american.

 

[Tee Kay]

Saying "Oh, but other people are doing worse stuff why are you guys always picking on me" does not change the reality that, while other people are indeed doing worse stuff deserving of international condemnation, some of the things Israel does deserve to be criticized or condemned.

 

[Eli]

Saying "Oh, but other people are doing worse stuff why are you guys always picking on me" does not change the reality that, while other people are indeed doing worse stuff deserving of international condemnation, some of the things Israel does deserve to be criticized or condemned.

Never claimed otherwise. We're trying our best, sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes the wrong people make the wrong decisions - such is life and such is war. Most of the time we're doing everything just right, you just don't hear about it, it's not really newsworthy.

But this is not what the thread is about.

 

[Formaldehyde]

First, I specifically stated that this piece of news was indeed published, so you don't have to point it out. What I do wonder is how little press it has received.

So you now want to retract your clearly erroneous statement that Turkey "admitted" that 130 "Kurds" were killed in Iraq last month, instead of PKK "terrorists" who were mainly killed in Turkey where they were actively attacking Turks?

Saying "Oh, but other people are doing worse stuff why are you guys always picking on me" does not change the reality that, while other people are indeed doing worse stuff deserving of international condemnation, some of the things Israel does deserve to be criticized or condemned.

Oh, no. You can't do that. It makes you a bigot and an anti-Semite to those who would prefer to engage in endless ad homs and obvious propaganda campaigns instead of actually address the issues.

 

[Eli]

Way ahead of you.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, I think the problem is stereotyping. It's almost impossible to not do. People have a hard time not lumping in critics with prosecutors. People have trouble not lumping in religious affiliation with their associated nutbars. In fact, people have a hard time dissociating 'Isreali' from 'Jewish'

For Eli's post #28, I think that part of the problem is that about 2 billion people share a religion that really seems to care about Israel. They're raised, since they were children, with racist faiths that have Israel as the main focus.

Eli's correct that many other places in the world deserve much more attention than they're getting. Unfortunately, bringing this up can seem like deflection. And part of the problem, too, with Israel's focus is that many Westerners believe that there's a civil solution to Israel's crisis: we're assuming that the majority of the people who have most of the power are basically educated and informed. We're assuming that logical criticism can help make a difference.

 

[Eli]

So you now want to retract your clearly erroneous statement that 130 "Kurds" were killed in Iraq last month?

I'm confused. What erroneous statement? Your very own link claims it's true:
"On May 20 alone, more than 100 PKK militants were killed in air raids in the Hakurk area in northern Iraq".

Edit: You seem to have again forgotten to reply to the rest of my post, especially the part dealing with your astonishing gullibility.

 

[Shekwan]

And even in Europe anti-semitic crimes are hitting record highs.

Really? I would have thought the mid 1930s to mid 1940s would've set the record highs.

We're really outdoing ourselves.

And yes anti-semitism is used as a tool to prevent criticism of the Israeli state. Its a well worn tactic, but thats only because its so effective.