Why are socialism and communism equated with one-another in the US?

That may be, but let's not confuse "socialism" and "communism" in theory with what they are (or rather were) in practice - which was my point.
Ignoring, of course, the question of whether they ever were implemented, which was my point. As I mentioned above, almost all "socialist" states degenerate into dictatorial state capitalism before ever getting round to the whole "socialist" thing- and those that haven't are inevitably of a far less radical Social Democratic variety) and, certainly, no Marxist communist society has ever been attempted.
To assume that socialism exists purely because someone claimed that it did is really rather silly. The Soviet Union also claimed to be just, democratic and egalitarian, and those were all patent falsehoods; why then should we believe that they were socialist?
 
I don't know the exact consistency of such an understanding throughout their history, but I believe the 'Communist' states did recognise that they were not yet communist. As such, the muddying of the waters come mostly from people who fail to appreciate the content of the actual ideology.
 
Ah, the classic "it didn't work so it wasn't really communism" defense. Of course this shouldn't improve one's perception of far-left economics, since all this demonstrates is that every attempt at Marxism has left countries devastated and totalitarian, as opposed to communism itself. Is that so much an improvement?

It really is baffling that people continue to defend Marxism to death these days. A 19th century antisemite, who inherited a great deal of wealth but nevertheless saw the wealthy as unconditionally evil, whose almost every prediction ended up not coming true, and whose philosophy of life is fundamentally based on the laughably insane G.W.F. Hegel, probably isn't end up going to be a prophet.
 
Inasmuch as I am hardly a Marxist (as far as 19th-century philosophers go, I much prefer Mill), I feel I have to make the following points in the interest of fairness:

Ah, the classic "it didn't work so it wasn't really communism" defense. Of course this shouldn't improve one's perception of far-left economics, since all this demonstrates is that every attempt at Marxism has left countries devastated and totalitarian, as opposed to communism itself. Is that so much an improvement?

It's not so much that as the fact that Lenin hijacked Marxism before anyone actually attempted it. Lenin took the idea of the revolutionary vanguard from Blanqui, whom Marx regarded as a fool. Marx insisted that the revolution had to be prepared in a fully-industrialized country, which Russia definitely was not, and if you understand Marxism's fundamental point, you'll realize why: capitalism produces a bounty of great stuff--enough for everybody, in fact--but distributes it foolishly. He celebrates capitalism's ability to produce things and produce vast quantities of material goods. However, these things are produced in the interest of what produces the greatest profit rather than what people actually need; socialism and communism would supposedly remedy that maldistribution. Say what you like about the idea--its impracticality is one I particularly noted--but at the very least you have to recognize that it couldn't possibly have been established in Russia, or in China, or anywhere else that "Communists" have taken power. In Marx's view, capitalism has to be established and have reached its full productive capacity before anything else can happen. He gave more or less explicit advice to the Russian socialists that they ought to encourage the development of capitalism there before trying anything, and he actually applauded the British colonization of India for introducing the capitalist system to a country that he regarded as incapable of advancing otherwise. Engels said much the same thing about the bloody French suppression of rebellions in North Africa.

Thus there have been no attempts at Marxism as Marx understood it. Of course, that's partly his fault: despite his critique of capitalism, he really never got around to fleshing out his ideas on what was supposed to come afterward. He spent far too much time writing Capital.

It really is baffling that people continue to defend Marxism to death these days. A 19th century antisemite, who inherited a great deal of wealth but nevertheless saw the wealthy as unconditionally evil, whose almost every prediction ended up not coming true, and whose philosophy of life is fundamentally based on the laughably insane G.W.F. Hegel, probably isn't end up going to be a prophet.

There are are a few things wrong here.

First, about Marx himself: he was not so much an antisemite as possibly a self-hating Jew; in any case, "On the Jewish Question" was written early in his career, before he formulated Marxism, and good cases are to be made (I'm not saying I necessarily believe them, but good cases they are) that that article has been misconstrued. Also, he was hardly rich, but rather comfortably middle-class in his childhood. He led a more or less hand-to-mouth existence in London, i.e. for most of his life (he had to rely on Engels' generosity--Engels, as it happens was rich--to get by). Writing doesn't get you very much pay, you see.

Second, on Marx's ideas: First, Marx contributed a great deal to political and social thought, and his ideas have proven indispensable in the development of the social sciences. His emphasis on material social forces, despite its couching in Hegelian terms, informs virtually all contemporary study in political science and sociology. In that we are deeply indebted to Marx, even if he was probably overly simplistic in his dismissal of individuals and ideas in his analysis. We may not share his application of the Hegelian form to the general idea, but the idea had to start somewhere, and the concept can be seen as starting with Marx at least as much as with Comte. His critique of capitalism, although it is often dated or outright wrong, is nevertheless incisive, and deserves serious consideration by capitalists and anti-capitalists alike.

Of course, his attachment to Hegel is, frankly, rather silly, and ultimately it is that attachment that puts the lie to his predictions; they are founded on a theory of History that doesn't necessarily follow from his premises.

As for the dictatorship of the proletariat (which has been bandied about a bit), he never gave a clear indication of what he wanted, which is why self-proclaimed Marxists have been able to declare whatever they wish "Marxism" when in fact Marx is probably spinning in his grave on account of them. The only thing he ever seriously said about it is in "The Civil War in France," in which he indicates that the dictatorship of the proletariat would look a lot like the Paris Commune, only for more than a few months in the spring, in more than just one city, and with a couple of changes made.

As to the overall question of the thread: the conflation of socialism and communism in the United States is really a historical matter (duh) that has to do with the fact that socialism has never really had a foothold in this country. It's easy to misunderstand that which with you are unfamiliar: unlike Europe, the socialists failed to establish a strong connection with the mainstream labor unions, so when the workers' movement got a foothold, it didn't have a socialist flavor but rather a liberal, progressive-reformist one--one that meshed well with the existing political parties. At the end of the day, the unions hitched their wagon to the Democratic donkey rather than the GOP's elephant for various reasons (the most likely being the association of the Republicans with the Northeast and thus industrialists), and socialism as such was effectively dead in America.

Now why socialism never linked up with the unions in the United States is another matter entirely; it's certainly not for lack of trying. I've heard all kinds of arguments, none of which are entirely satisfactory.
 
Ah, the classic "it didn't work so it wasn't really communism" defense.
I believe the stated logic is "it wasn't really communism, so it didn't work". What you present is rather the reverse. Perhaps it's a more accurate description, I don't know, but the fact that you use the term "communism" rather than the more (that is to say, actually) accurate "socialism" or "Marxism" does rather lead me to think that your grip on the subject is shakier than your dismissive scorn may otherwise imply...
 
(the most likely being the association of the Republicans with the Northeast and thus industrialists)
Wouldn't an association with the Northeast also connect it to Industrial Workers? I know it's a simplistic answer, but it seems a good enough one, that the nomination of Taft was the turning point for the Republican Party.
 
Ah, the classic "it didn't work so it wasn't really communism" defense. Of course this shouldn't improve one's perception of far-left economics, since all this demonstrates is that every attempt at Marxism has left countries devastated and totalitarian, as opposed to communism itself. Is that so much an improvement?

It really is baffling that people continue to defend Marxism to death these days. A 19th century antisemite, who inherited a great deal of wealth but nevertheless saw the wealthy as unconditionally evil, whose almost every prediction ended up not coming true, and whose philosophy of life is fundamentally based on the laughably insane G.W.F. Hegel, probably isn't end up going to be a prophet.

Do you even know what Marxism is? How much of Marx have you read?
 
Wouldn't an association with the Northeast also connect it to Industrial Workers? I know it's a simplistic answer, but it seems a good enough one, that the nomination of Taft was the turning point for the Republican Party.

Northeastern industrial workers tended to be immigrants, who in turn tended to be Democrats. Perhaps I should have been clearer. Although yes, Taft was the turning point.
 
Thus there have been no attempts at Marxism as Marx understood it. Of course, that's partly his fault: despite his critique of capitalism, he really never got around to fleshing out his ideas on what was supposed to come afterward. He spent far too much time writing Capital.

Yes, I've noticed. His writings were vague enough to allow apologists to claim "but it wasn't really communism" as a universal response to its clear examples of failure. Nostradamian advocates get away with the same shenanigans by appealing to obscurity or personal interpretation.

First, about Marx himself: he was not so much an antisemite as possibly a self-hating Jew; in any case, "On the Jewish Question" was written early in his career, before he formulated Marxism, and good cases are to be made (I'm not saying I necessarily believe them, but good cases they are) that that article has been misconstrued.

I've read the article in question. It's clear as day. Karl Marx never recanted his bigoted views so there is no reason to buy this rebuttal.

Also, he was hardly rich, but rather comfortably middle-class in his childhood. He led a more or less hand-to-mouth existence in London, i.e. for most of his life (he had to rely on Engels' generosity--Engels, as it happens was rich--to get by). Writing doesn't get you very much pay, you see.

Don't remember the source for where I heard this, so by all means ignore it if you'd like, but I believe he inherited something like seven times the annual salary of an average German labourer. Perhaps the number is wrong, but the point remains that it's rather hypocritical of him, considering that in the Manifesto, he demanded the abolishment of all inheriterential rights. Any response to this point is inevitably the "special pleading" fallacy.

Second, on Marx's ideas: First, Marx contributed a great deal to political and social thought, and his ideas have proven indispensable in the development of the social sciences. His emphasis on material social forces, despite its couching in Hegelian terms, informs virtually all contemporary study in political science and sociology.

He was influential on the advancement of these studies because people listened to him. That doesn't mean that his ideas are even remotely plausible by modern standards, which is why I'm baffled at how many people are still Marxist apologists. He should be viewed the same way as Ptolemy and geocentrism in this instance: a man who made some interesting observations and drew (somewhat) reasonable hypotheses, but have been wholly discredited.

For instance, his theory on the origin of religion is so absurd that I've witnessed sociologists' eyeballs rolling straight out of their heads.

His critique of capitalism, although it is often dated or outright wrong, is nevertheless incisive, and deserves serious consideration by capitalists and anti-capitalists alike.

Not at all. Most of his arguments against capitalism were derived from earlier writers or contemporaries like Proudhon.

I believe the stated logic is "it wasn't really communism, so it didn't work". What you present is rather the reverse. Perhaps it's a more accurate description, I don't know, but the fact that you use the term "communism" rather than the more (that is to say, actually) accurate "socialism" or "Marxism" does rather lead me to think that your grip on the subject is shakier than your dismissive scorn may otherwise imply...

Almost all communists nowadays are Marxists so it's rather nitpicky to establish the dichotomy.

Do you even know what Marxism is? How much of Marx have you read?

Not every word he's ever written. Enough to know what a crockload Marxism is.
 
O, do elaborate. :please:

The biggest example I can think of is Marxist art historians. While some are radically inclined, many of them aren't. Dare I say most of them.

And, of course, anyone who takes Marxism as what it is first and foremost, a critique of the capitalist political economy. It is an attempt to examine the capitalist system from outside the system, sort of like how the best way to examine a whale is from outside the whale, not inside.
 
And, of course, anyone who takes Marxism as what it is first and foremost, a critique of the capitalist political economy. It is an attempt to examine the capitalist system from outside the system, sort of like how the best way to examine a whale is from outside the whale, not inside.
I'm pretty sure vivesection can tell you quite a bit about whales.
 
Not every word he's ever written. Enough to know what a crockload Marxism is.

Sounds about as much as I read of the Bible :lol: Actually, I think I know the Bible much much better than you know Marx. Do you know, without looking it up now, what is commodity fetishism? Reification? Surplus value? Didn't think so.

Talking about bigotry, I wonder who's the biggest bigot here.
 
Why are socialism and communism equated with one-another in the US? The Red Scare during the 20s and Cold War eras.
 
Perhaps a better question would be; why are socialism and social capitalism equated with one another in the US?
 
Sounds about as much as I read of the Bible :lol: Actually, I think I know the Bible much much better than you know Marx. Do you know, without looking it up now, what is commodity fetishism? Reification? Surplus value? Didn't think so.

I like how you answered yourself before you gave me a chance, like this were a televised debate. Seeing as how you've already made up your mind that anybody who disagrees with you doesn't know what they're talking about, should I even bother? Feel free to stay trapped in your intellectual pothole if you'd like.

Talking about bigotry, I wonder who's the biggest bigot here.

Ah, ad hominem fallacy. If you want to disprove the notion that Marx was an antisemite, then do so by proving Marx was probably not an antisemite, not subtly implying that everybody who disagrees with you is not only ignorant but also bigoted.
 
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