Why are you (still) modding CivCol ?

[raystuttgart]

So ok, I will necro this old thread.
There are only few of us modders left, but it would still be interested to hear why you are here.

Maybe we can also interpret it to "Why do you still play this game ?".
Maybe some of the players in our community might become modders one day as well.

 

[Ramstormp]

So ok, I will necro this old thread.
There are only few of us modders left, but it would still be interested to hear why you are here.

Maybe we can also interpret it to "Why do you still play this game ?".
Maybe some of the players in our community migh

I am here because I used to follow the exciting posts of the beginning stages of RaR; but suddenly had to more or less quit playing non board-games altogether for 10 years or so. Then one day thought, hey I wonder if they ever finished all those features they had planned for Colonization? I was blown away by WtP, and by the fact that you guys were still working on it.

I lately took some personality test, which suggested that my personality needed to express itself creatively and share the creative work publicly. I thought that making a mod and posting it on the forum would be a more or less risk free way to do that. I think something about modding balances my right and left brain - the logical and the creative sides working together for once - which brings some kind of satisfying sense of harmony.

 

[raystuttgart]

... which brings some kind of satisfying sense of harmony ...

Yeah, I know that feeling.

Being creative and successfully publishing a mod is really satisying.
Especially if all the hard work pays off and other people actually like what you did.

 

[devolution]

.. because there are no/few other games that are worthwhile to play. I've realized that the only way to be able to play a *proper* game is to make it myself

 

[raystuttgart]

Oh boy, I had started this thread in 2012 ... 9 years ago ...
(And even then I had been modding 4 years already.)

But recently I had asked myself this question again:
"Why are you still modding Civ4Col?".

So I started to list what brings me back to modding again and again:

1. I still see the potential of this game and what it could become and feel desire.
2. I also see what we have achieved in 13 years by according effort and feel awe for all the effort invested.
3. I remember the "Golden Days" of Civ4Col modding and still modding is also nostalgia.
4. I feel this strange sense of obligation to preserve the heritage of the mod we have created.
5. I read the posts of players in the forums and chats and feel real pride.
6. Every time I succeed to create a new feature or fix a difficult issue there is a short feeling of success.
7. When I see that at least sometimes it is possible to motivate new modders to start, I feel hope.
8. When I play the game itself, I feel joy that simply comes from having created it myself.
...

---

But of course these are not the only emotions a modder may feel if he really cares about a project.
There is also disappointment, frustration, desperation, weariness, impatience, annoyance, anger ...

This is often related to or reinforced by things in private life.
For me it is mostly job and health at the moment.

---

So for me, modding this game is a deeply emotional experience.
Something that people may never understand if they have not invested themselves more than a decade into a project.

---

But what about right now?

I have been intensively modding again for a few releases of WTP.
And again it was deeply emotional - positively and negatively.

In the end I feel we achieved to create great new content together.
But I am tired now ... my motivation has burnt down and needs to be refueled.

And what really keeps me smiling is that I see that at least a few new modders started to show up.
So I know that WTP and this community will continue and still be there when I may return to modding.

As I always did, I will stay around and read in the forums a bit.
I will simply not actively mod and rather invest my time otherwise.

---

Summary:

I am taking a long break from actively modding Civ4Col again.
But I will probably come back at some point as well.

Until then keep having fun modding.
Keep creating great stuff.

Bye
raystuttgart

 

[Cerberus™]

Thank you, modders, for your great work! Not a modder myself, though. I have not played Colonization since ca. 1995, but, when I saw there were these great mods out, I actually became enthusiastic about trying this Civ IV version, with mods! I'll probably play it some time soon.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Maybe we can also interpret it to "Why do you still play this game ?".
Maybe some of the players in our community might become modders one day as well.

The big thing I like in Civ4Col is that it focuses development on trade rather than war and conquest. Over time, reading about History, I believe organizing exchanges have actually been more decisive in the development of civilization and I believe Civ4Col is well-balanced in this regard. I like the way we entirely build from scratch a nation which ultimately become self-sustaining in this game.

Now the game is old, and I believe we're not far from having reached its full potential as it is with all the mods you contributed to build over time, TAC, RAR and WTP. An interesting question is, what would you make of it if you would have the opportunity to build a new game from scratch? Let's imagine a major developper would hire you, giving you all the money and staff required, what kind of game would you make?

 

[raystuttgart]

Let's imagine a major developper would hire you ...

Well, first of all I would not want to work for a "major developer" because of the way these companies work. I am not an illusionist.
It would not be "my game" anymore. It would be a game that others dictate on me. I would probably hate to work for that company very soon.

Being driven by release dates and budgets that others decided is not what I want. Being forced to create "mainstream" content to maximise sales numbers is not what I want.
Creative people or technical experts being force to do what sales or marketing decide is one of the main reason why so many major games titles never reach their full potential.

Playber community at some point starts to lose interest in a game and there is less and less money to be made. Well made DLCs may slow down this effect but not stop it.
Major developers and publishers at some point needs to turn to a new game and cannot afford anymore to improve their old game even if the small remaining fan community is loyal.

-----

... giving you all the money and staff required ...

It is not just about "all the money" and "all the staff".
Meaning it is not just about "amounts".

1. It is about finding the right people - people that match in vision, motivation, philosophie. People you trust. People that bond.
I would rather have 3 or 4 "partners or even friends" that believe in what we do than 20 people as "staff" that just work for their salaries.

2. Also it is about "where to get the money from" - because the source that you get the money from will dictate what you do.
Nothing ever comes for free. Some way or the other you will have to pay it back. So I would rather be careful about taking "all the money".

I was considering to start my own computer company with a couple of people that might share the "same visions".
I seriously considered it a couple of times, talked with a few skilled people but never could convince anybody I trusted enough to become a partner.

I would even have enough money to at least start a small company with maybe 4 team members and finance it for the first couple of months to see how much potential it would have.
Then however I would need to find external financiation or otherwise go broke. I could not pay salaries of co-workers / partners forever. Everything would be put on one card. Succeed or go broke.

--------

... what kind of game would you make?

Realistically? Or just dreaming?

Realistically:

It would most likely be a small indie title that might get noticed by players of my generation that not necessarily seek fast action but rather story and "empire building".
I would try to mix strong story with a campaing based 4x title (e.g. like my "Path for the Throne" story line). Most of the game mechanics would already be known by e.g. WTP.

Basically WTP / RaR / TAC would then have been the "prototypes" and "proofs of concepts" to figure out which game concepts work and which do not.
A few of the other feature designs / game concepts I still have could also be experimentally reused to add new game mechanics WTP players have not yet seen.

Summary:
Simply take the stuff that is "proven in use" and improve it a bit.
(Also trying to add a better graphic engine and interesting story.)

--------

Dreaming:

Oh well, basically trying to combine 3 aspects I like most in games.
Something already tried so often by other games and never having been done fully successful.

1. Tactical Turn Based Combat (with a bit of RPG elements for e.g. heroes)
2. 4x Empire Building / Management (focussing though on diplomacy, science and ecnonomy)
3. Story based Campaigns (with ideally randomly generated maps) with a few Units and heroes that you use throughout it

It would most likely be "Science Fiction" or "Fantasy" because everything historical would pose to many limitations to what I could really do without ruinging immersion.
To make this understandable, try to think of "XCOM combat" + "WTP like empire building" + "Dune or Game of Thrones inspired story" (depending on Fantasy vs SciFi decision).

The campaign story would definitely be pretty dark.
(Happy endings of each campaign not necessarily guaranteed.)

It may sound a lot like "copycat" of other people's ideas. But that is actually not really the intention. I am e.g. not trying to reuse an existing story but to write a new one.
There is little point either to not use already existing game mechanics and design patters that have proven very successfull.

Summary:
Try to create something that is "epic" on a grand scale.
(Combine interesting game mechanics with deeply immersive story.)[/quote]

 

[Marla_Singer]

Well, first of all I would not want to work for a "major developer" because of the way these companies work. I am not an illusionist.
It would not be "my game" anymore. It would be a game that others dictate on me. I would probably hate to work for that company very soon.

Being driven by release dates and budgets that others decided is not what I want. Being forced to create "mainstream" content to maximise sales numbers is not what I want.
Creative people or technical experts being force to do what sales or marketing decide is one of the main reason why so many major games titles never reach their full potential.

Playber community at some point starts to lose interest in a game and there is less and less money to be made. Well made DLCs may slow down this effect but not stop it.
Major developers and publishers at some point needs to turn to a new game and cannot afford anymore to improve their old game even if the small remaining fan community is loyal.

-----



It is not just about "all the money" and "all the staff".
Meaning it is not just about "amounts".

1. It is about finding the right people - people that match in vision, motivation, philosophie. People you trust. People that bond.
I would rather have 3 or 4 "partners or even friends" that believe in what we do than 20 people as "staff" that just work for their salaries.

2. Also it is about "where to get the money from" - because the source that you get the money from will dictate what you do.
Nothing ever comes for free. Some way or the other you will have to pay it back. So I would rather be careful about taking "all the money".

I was considering to start my own computer company with a couple of people that might share the "same visions".
I seriously considered it a couple of times, talked with a few skilled people but never could convince anybody I trusted enough to become a partner.

I would even have enough money to at least start a small company with maybe 4 team members and finance it for the first couple of months to see how much potential it would have.
Then however I would need to find external financiation or otherwise go broke. I could not pay salaries of co-workers / partners forever. Everything would be put on one card. Suceed or go broke.

--------



Realistically? Or just dreaming?

Realistically:

It would most likely be a small indie title that might get noticed by players of my generation that not necessarily seek fast action but rather story and "empire building".
I would try to mix strong story with a campaing based 4x title (e.g. like my "Path for the Throne" story line). Most of the game mechanics would already be known by e.g. WTP.

Basically WTP / RaR / TAC would then have been the "prototypes" and "proofs of concepts" to figure out which game concepts work and which do not.
A few of the other feature designs / game concepts I still have could also be experimentally reused to add new game mechanics WTP players have not yet seen.

Summary:
Simply take the stuff that is "proven in use" and improve it a bit.
(Also trying to add a better graphic engine and interesting story.)

--------

Dreaming:

Oh well, basically trying to combine 3 aspects I like most in games.
Something already tried so often by other games and never having been done fully successful.

1. Tactical Turn Based Combat (with a bit of RPG elements for e.g. heroes)
2. 4x Empire Building / Management (focussing though on diplomacy, science and ecnonomy)
3. Story based Campaigns (with ideally randomly generated maps) with a few Units and heroes that you use throughout it

It would most likely be "Science Fiction" or "Fantasy" because everything historical would pose to many limitations to what I could really do without ruinging immersion.
To make this understandable, try to think of "XCOM combat" + "WTP like empire building" + "Dune or Game of Thrones inspired story" (depending on Fantasy vs SciFi decision).

The campaign story would definitely be pretty dark.
(Happy endings of each campaign not necessarily guaranteed.)

It may sound a lot like "copycat" of other people's ideas. But that is actually not really the intention. I am e.g. not trying to reuse an existing story but to write a new one.
There is little point either to not use already existing game mechanics and design patters that have proven very successfull.

Summary:
Try to create something that is "epic" on a grand scale.
(Combine interesting game mechanics with deeply immersive story.)

Thanks Ray for your answer. Probably I should have told it differently, yet you ultimately got the idea in telling me about the game you would dream about.

I've been wondering the same recently and in many aspects my thoughts are similar to yours. I really enjoy empire building in a turn-based game like you and after all that's why we're both on Civ and Colonization to begin with! I'm less interested though in heroic fantasy and I would probably go to something more historical but that's just me.

I also agree with you about focusing on diplomacy, science and economy. Economic development is really what is better done in Civ4Col than in any Civ game. Diplomacy could be improved. As for science, that is certainly what is lacking the most in Civ4Col (Civ has good concepts in this regard even if they may be improved).

I was then wondering whether I would go for a Colonization game or a Civilization game, and I ended up thinking about a hybrid. The idea would be that civs wouldn't all start at the same point in time: some would start directly from nomadism settling down as they traditionally do in civ, but others would appear first as vassals/colonies later in time as in Colonization. Therefore, Babylon would start from scratch in 2000 BC but France would start as a Roman colony in 52 BC and the US as a British colony in 1607 AD. Trade development would pretty much be like in Colonization with specialized workers developing several ressources for food, trade or production.

A major change from traditional Civ/Col games is that I wouldn't make the progression linear (constantly growing bigger). Expansion would generate a risk of civil war, seeing parts of your Empire splitting, therefore inciting use of vassalage/colonization for expansion, with the risk of losing them. As such, the big competitors wouldn't always be the same over time, as they would constantly split and give birth to new competitors. When losing a war, you wouldn't be destroyed, but vassalized, yet that wouldn't destroy all your chances of ultimate victory as in the end you could grow independent again whereas your competitors would also fall and be replaced by others. Being vassalized wouldn't have only downsides, it could favor trade with a richer power allowing faster development, yet you would be military weaker and therefore more exposed. That could all make diplomatic aspects very interesting.

Another aspect I've been questionning, which is probably more subject to discussion, is the need for the game to be grid-based. I think it could be really interesting to make it gridless: all objects (units, cities, ressources...) would be located according to decimalized X and Y coordinates, cities areas of influence and cultural borders would then grow in circles (being pottentially limited by mountains, rivers and oceans). As for worked parcels (farms, mines...), they would generate their own tiles around the city. The bonus of going gridless is that there would make units movements more natural, and it could allow to play at different scales: a wider scale for strategical aspects and a narrower scale for tactical combats. The game would remain turn-based though, the movement of your units being limited by a certain length per turn, but in full 360° directions.

Anyway, I know that's a pretty useless brainstorming, but I stil find it fun to think about it.

 

[Kendon]

1) What attracted me to the TAC mod originally was the historic comments, the awareness that colonization created serious problems for the colonized, but that these ironies flowed both ways. Indigenous people faced many tragedies but things weren’t always so great for the settlers either.

As the mod became more complex, social interactions increased in importance. At the moment, the most active coding discussion is about automating trade, so that the player spends more time as an economist and less as a shopkeeper.

While the mods build up a picture of a particular historic period, with entertaining forum discussions about what really happened back then, I saw analogies to the present and that got me thinking about the future.

What struck me is how freedom means different things to different people. I wrote a short series of modules, stories rather than coded games, that incorporated some of the actions made possible by WTP. The game begins just a little distance into the future. It’s based on our current world so the science is contemporary rather than futuristic; political science more than rocket science; but not doctrinaire. Success requires a pragmatic leader, not an idealist.

2) I share several of Ray's concerns. I like a team without a boss, where people combine different talents according to their personal goals. I do appreciate the aesthetic benefit of a good game engine and I know that can cost money, but generally I think the people who want money already control most of it so they expect to be in charge. Hiring staff isn't on my priority list. I think a durable game, more than a briefly popular one, is the best reward for talent.

I hinted at my idea some months back which is when I learned more about Path to the Throne. Path to the Throne could be very good. I’m not sure however that PttT can incorporate historic dialogue like the well-researched comments from James Fenimore Cooper and Chief Joseph that for me were the incentive to buy a new computer just so I could play TAC.

The outlines are written for publication as short stories but if you’re curious I can send you the first three modules, around 800 words each.

3) I like a hexagonal grid but I see how decimalized coordinates would make movement more natural.

 

[raystuttgart]

Recently I had several people that were smiling a bit or asking me about my "long break" from modding.
Because yes, after only 2 months I could not endure it any more and returned to active modding ...

Summary:

I am taking a long break from actively modding Civ4Col again.
But I will probably come back at some point as well.

----

So maybe community is interested to hear a bit about "my story" in modding.
However please excuse if some of these things are my subjective view of the past.

And yes sorry, this may get long ...
It is kind of my "love letter" to Civ4Col modding.

----

About myself and TAC to avoid any misunderstandings:

Spoiler :

I was not a founding member of TAC, I was just one out of about 12 team members.
I joined it about half a year after it had started as unexperienced young modder and had to learn first before really becoming productive.

However I was really passionate about it, learned fast and soon started contributing many features to it.
My goal was always to create a "Colonization 2" with many new features, creating the game I had always wanted for myself.

I am still proud of all we had achieved in TAC and I still consider it a great mod.
However, I am simply much more proud of the things we achieved in RaR and WTP.

The days of TAC (and the early days of RaR as well) were the "Golden Days" of Civ4Col modding.
Finding new motivated modders was relatively easy although of course not all were really skilled.

So many new ideas to explore ... we were pioneers venturing into the unknown.
All of us were exited about the vast potential of this new "New World" that lay before us.

Comparing TAC to todays WTP is a bit unfitting and maybe even unfair. So that is not what I am interested in and never really was.
Totally different community, totally different levels of experience and years of modding progress in between.

There is simply one thing that still haunts me:

I started this all with RaR after the rest of the TAC team decided to end TAC which was utterly disappointing for me and still hard to forget. *
I often felt that we had too easily abandoned that great project with so much potential ... well you never forget your first "modding love".

When starting RaR I had promised to continue the spirit of TAC ** but still I had abandoned RaR in the end and left @Schmiddie alone with the mod.
I felt I had abandoned RaR myself just like I had felt that the others had abandoned TAC ... betrayed my own ideals and broke my own promises. ***

This feeling of shame for "having disappointed myself" and abandoned "my own creation" may sound strange to you guys, but it is still there even if WTP now exists. ****
I logically know that WTP is not "my mod" though and that I am not "responsible for it in general", it is just not what my heart tells me when I think about "giving up". *****

For my heart RaR continues to live in WTP. And thus somehow a bit of TAC also continues to live in WTP.
I feel an obligation to preserve it and ensure that it is kept alive and is not simply forgotten.

----

* End days of TAC: With "forget" I am not talking about "forgive".

Spoiler :

There was nothing to forgive about team members wanting to end TAC and I could logically fully understand all the reasons.
(But there is simply a difference between logic and emotions. I was not really happy about it. I was still passionate.)

• Some openly said that they had lost motivation and wanted to focus again on real life or maybe also just to play games again.
  
• Some said we had succeeded with what we started for (an authentic Colonization) and the mod was thus finished aka "final Version".
• Some said that further changes of the mod would just unnecessarily make it more complex - not more fun, maybe even less fun.
• Some said said that we should turn to new projects as total conversions of TAC (Medieval, Fantasy, Horror, Sci-Fi, ...).
• Some said that we should turn to a new more modern Civ game and create a great mod for that new game with a better engine.
• A few of us even wanted to continue but our visions were simply incompatible (e.g. Melcher wanted keep simple gameplay, I wanted more complex gameplay)
  
• ...

All of these reasons and arguments we all valid but with each day the discussion lastet it became more obvious that there was no chance for TAC anymore.
Because to simplify the message though it just meant: "Our team is dead. The common vision is gone.". Once the discussion started, it could not be stopped aymore.

** Beginning of RaR: Not everything between RaR and TAC follow up projects was smooth.

Spoiler :

I never wanted to, but we ended up in a really strange situation of competition and jealousy between TAC, RaR and TAC follow up projects.
(Of course also in those days, the modding resources in community were not endless.)

• We had stupid arguments about which TAC follow up project (e.g. RaR or Tortuga) was allowed to publish graphics of Schmiddie (member of both teams) first.
• We had stupid arguments about me being involved in TAC team discussions and being told to not be a TAC team member anymore due to having founded RaR.
  
• We had stupid arguments about me not supporting other TAC follow up projects "as promised" even if I tried and offered e.g. bugfixes and features.
  
• We had stupid arguments about me recruiting modders too aggressively and thus stealing modders from other TAC follow up mod projects.
  
• We had stupid arguments about me not giving proper credits for graphics from the internet or telling too often which features I had implemented in TAC.
  
• We had stupid arguments about myself being disrespectful by telling TAC players that I had implemented a feature they requested of TAC in RaR.
• I was once told to have abandoned the TAC team for not joining their new follow up projects although I had been fighting hard to continue the main project.
• I was also told to be disrespectful to the TAC team by telling all the time how much bigger RaR had become in terms of content - even though I nevers said RaR was better.
• I often felt that all my offers for cooperation and support were seen as nothing else than trying a "hostile take over" of smaller mods by a larger and more successful mod
  
• ...

I am not saying I was always right because I was probably not. And a lot of time things were surely also conceived differently than I intended them.
But see in the end we had ended up like a "divorced couple" arguing for nothing. Mostly still having hurt feelings about the others going their own ways.

I somehow felt the others had abandoned TAC mod by officially ending it and declaring it final.
And the others for some reason felt I had abandoned TAC team by inofficially continuing the TAC mod as RaR.

So whatever one of us did, we were kind of always feeling "He abandoned me."
Some of us could overcome this feeling and cooperate again here and there. Some of us could not.

*** End days of RaR: Well, at some point I was frustrated enough to lose all motivation and hope.

Spoiler :

In the end, only me and Schmiddie were left of the old TAC team. Other people wanting to eventually join having totally different visions.
RaR was starting to break up into private modmods or team members having other reasons to quit modding. I did not have the willpower anymore to keep it together.

Even I myself had already considered to split away from RaR and had started creating my private project Path to the Throne which infact might have ended my time in RaR.
Only due to the failure and trouble in PttT I returned to RaR - mostly to not waste the effort already invested in new features of PttT by converting them into RaR features.

But at some point I had completely lost hope to ever achieve what I had as vision for RaR (PttT I already considred dead) or if further trying to succeed completely wasting myself.
On the other hand I also was not interested to go through the same discussions again as in TAC once RaR would break apart which I thought was inevitable.

And yes, once I had left RaR did fall apart into small splitted modmods ... and I watched it inactively from the side line until I could not endure the conflicting emotions that caused anymore.
I could not imagine that there was any chance the mod could ever recover its former glory again .Thus I started to completely ignore the forum to save me from further emotional suffering.

**** Beginning of WTP: Imagine my surprise to return 2 years later again and find out about WTP.

Spoiler :

Well, 2 years later I figured out that the thing I had started with RaR had actually still continued to live under a new name and a new team had continued to improve the mod.
To be honest I was not shockingly amazed by the amount of new features, but even that the project still lived and bugfixes and improvements were implemented was amazing by itself.

Even more shocking to me was that there were actually still really skilled modders in the project like @Nightinggale and @devolution (both better programmers than I could ever be).
Something in my heart said "Please give it another chance, maybe just maybe ..." and I contacted those guys again and asked if an old modder like me could join them.

And yes infact we succeeded assembling some of the other modders in the team again and creating new releases again.

• Was it simple to do so ? No it was not, it was hard work and often frustrating.
  
• Was it always easy to find a common vision ? No definitely not. Our visions still differ.
  
• Was progress always like I had wished for ? No it was not. It was often painfully slow.
  
• Were there times I thought about giving up once more ? Sure, I still do sometimes.
• ...

***** It is as simple as this:
Even if all hope for a mod seems to be lost, a small spark like one single modder picking up the work again, may ignite the fire once more.
(This time I had ended my break from modding because @FlaviusBelisarius had continued to work on the mod and I felt ashamed not to contribute as well.)

Over at our discord I had written as answer to the question "Did you not want to take a long break?":

Spoiler :

It is hard to describe why I keep coming back to modding Civ4Col / WTP again and again. I have feelings for that mod just like a parent for its child.

But there is a very challenging and exhausting side to modding: ... I feel frustrated so often because I know the mod has not achieved its "full potential" and I still see how long the road still is to achieve that "full potential" ... I also often feel that today players hardly still care for this game and that in a few years this game and our mod will be completely forgotten ... Every time another modder tells me "Sorry but after so many years I lost all motivation" a little bit of my motivation dies as well. ... Sometimes it feels so embarassing to have to run around begging for help to fix a graphical bug I can not fix because I am no graphpical modder myself ... Sometimes I feel helpless when players scream at us again and again because there is this OOS bug we can not fix in Multi-Player because we have no access to the exe of the game ... Sometimes I feel weak and tired and do not want to drag myself to the keyboard just because I promised a modding friend to finish something so he can continue his work ... Sometimes I feel alone and like I am the only stupid idiot that still cares because there is complete silence in the modding community for weeks and I do not know why no other modder is posting anymore ... ---- in such times it is often best to step back a while to recover motivation again. Just as long as it takes.

Modding truly is a constant battle against losing motivation and hope if there are no other modders to hold you up constantly.

When I then see new modders like @FlaviusBelisarius or old modders like @Nightinggale starting to work on the mod again I get motivated as well again and feel obligated to support.
Otherwise I feel ashamed of not supporting his effort to keep "my baby" alive and thus need to get active again as well.

Players may believe that "modding a game" is just like "playing a game". It is a totally different story. When you try to mod on a level like we WTP modders do, it is basically almost like an extreme sport. It eats up an extreme amount of time and energy to keep skilled and to actually really develop new content in reasonable speed and quality. Top skill modders easily invest up to 12h to 16h a week into modding. Basically consider it like 2 extra days of work every single week.

It is challenging and it is awesome when after weeks of effort your feature finally works or you finally succeeded fixing a bug.
But it is exhausting.

To understand "modders" you really need to be a "modder" yourself. Most of us are a little bit crazy.

Creating a new big release takes months of effort. It is like climbing the Mount Everest. Every step gets harder and harder. After you did it you are totally wasted and often say "I will never ever do something as stupid as that again in my life !!!". 2 months later the modder stands before the Mount Everest again, looks at it and says "Well, here I am again. I have beaten you last time and I will beat you this time as well." and starts marching upwards.

Well, here I am again. I have successfully climbed the Mount Everest the last 30 times and will successfully climb it this time again. If enough of us modders work together and form a chain of ropes to secure and support each other so nobody falls down, we will all succeed together. The more we are to climb this mountain, the easier it gets. But I will rather die in shame before I will let another modding friend climb that mountain alone without having at least one another modder securing and supporting him with his own rope.

Nobody really understands why but there is always one of us crazy enough to try to climb the "Mount Everest" and then others start to follow so he is not all alone ... It is maybe a matter of friendship, loyalty and dedication, maybe a matter of honor and pride, maybe the thrill to seek true challenge and to test your mental strength, maybe a sense of obligation, stubborness to back down or refusal to give up, maybe desire to find some fullfillment and respect or to simply create something great and lasting that might be remembered, maybe masochism, maybe ... who knows ... It has been like this since I can remember ... I was not the first and I will also not be the last ... but I was and always will be part of it ... and as long as there is still one of us crazy enough to try it again and walk at the front so others can follow, it will continue like this forever ... maybe, maybe not ...

 

[FlaviusBelisarius]

Thank you @raystuttgart for sharing your story!

I get a warm feeling in my heart for being able to contribute my small part to the one main objective I had for my work with WtP: to help keep the mod alive, to keep people interested, motivated, and connected to each other. On the other hand, I get a slight feeling of guilt for perhaps as well compelling you stopping your break short. Not my intention. Happy to see you being active nevertheless, hopefully for the good reasons too!

 

[raystuttgart]

But maybe this means that modding is a little bit more than a hobby for you....

Some modders like myself have been working on "their" mod for very very long.
In my cases it has been about 15 years more or less, sometimes more intensive, sometimes less.

But still I easily end up with something like this:
15 years * 52 weeks * 12 hours = 9360 hours
(It is about 10.000+ hours most likely)

Can you imagine how much motivation and passion was needed for that?
Do you think that you could still treat it like "just a hobby"?

-----

At some point you develop a "love-hate-relationship" with your mod.

You hate it, because it consumed so much of your private time, without yet giving you the "perfect game" you want.
And you also hate it for having caused you so much frustration, when things did not work out as planned.

You also love it though for seing all the great potential it has to to become this "perfect game" and also seeing how far it has already come.
And you also love it for all the good memories and all the fun you had being creative implementing your ideas.

Trust me, you will not just be cheering if you need to work another 50 hours just to make a feature work or fix a bug.
But once done and it is just as you wanted it, you will look at it and say "This is my creation.".

-----

But it is not only that. There is also also a social component to modding.
And I am not talking about player community here, but about befriended modders.

See, some say when you "fought in battle" together you develop a sense of comradery.
Of course we do not fight a war in modding, but after so many years it is still a sense of "community".

We shared frustrations and efforts, but also shared success and fun.
This has created a band of obligation, loyalty and duty towards those comrades, that may also pull us back in.

There is a sense of friendship, when you work on a mod together long enough.
And when one of your team members drops out of modding for good, it also hurts.

This community has lost way too many skilled great modders already.
Not saying that their reasons were not understandable, still it was sad.

-----

And if that is not enough, there is a a certain mentality of "challenging yourself" in modding.
Modding on the "highest level" can truly be a challenge. In fact you may even search for that.

Of course there is challenge for your skills - even though after 15 years you have become a "modding master" so to say.
The problem of "skills" has become much smaller. In most cases you do not doubt anymore that you will be successful eventually.

But there is still the challenge for your perseverance. And even after 15 years, it will not go away. As you get older, it may even become harder.
Developing for half a year or even a year without reaching the top of the mountain and successfully releasing is exhausting.

Compare modding on highest levels with an extreme sport. You will explore and contest some mental limits eventually.
You do it, because it still challenges you and facing and overcoming that challenge is quite satisfying.

-----

15 years ago, I started modding only for the result of having more fun in a game.
Now I mod also for the sake of modding. Passion, community, challenge.

True modders have turned from "consumers" into "creators".
It is actually the journey that has become more important than the destination.

There is a true saying: You become what you practice.

If you want to become creative, practice it.
If you want to become perseverant, practice it.
If you want to become resiliient, practice it.
If you want to become reliable, practice it.
If you want to become disciplined, practice it.
...

There is a lot of good character traits you may develop in modding - but of course in other hobbies as well.
But if you cringe and shrink back at the slightest failure and frustration, you never will.

And of course there is also technical skills like e.g. programming or graphical design you will acquire eventually.
But those are in my opinion not really what matters most, even if they make modding a lot easier.

-----

With the mindset of a "consumer" modding is probably the most stupid thing you could do.
You "waste" so much of your private time instead of just being lazy and playing games others created.

But with the mindset of a "creator" modding might be a very interesting hobby where you might find passion.
You can learn a lot about yourself, develop new useful skills and find satisfaction in creating something of your own.

I once already tried to describe that the lazy "consumer" side in myself also contantly fights the motivated "creator" side in myself.
And it is also not like I have always been winning this battle either ...

My advice:
It does not have to be modding, if you find other things in life that give you passion.
But try to turn into a "creator" and not become a "consumer". It is much more satisfying.
(This is generally true for everything in life. I would also apply it to a job.)

-----

Yeah, for somebody who has never really created something himself it sounds like I overexagerrate.
But I challenge you: Invest 15 years of your private life into "just a hobby" and then we talk again.

 

[Lmk]

Thanks for the long and detailed answer, it was nice to read it on my break from work, getting my head of the daily challenges.....
Yes I get you, I even think I got you from the start. I experience it in similar ways with other things like sports (many kinds of it, team sports like football, ice hockey,...being part of a team, chasing titles and failing is a regular experience) to training kids to get professionals or at least semi professionals. I think I spend 20 years on personal work out alone, which means that you always chase perfection in terms of fitness and physique, like a madman, but never be enough to your own standards. I know the evenings after work where you are the only idiot in your hometown, who has to run through cold rain or workout at a calisthenics park at -10 degrees because you could "get behind on schedule" or "lose some shape".
I tried to calculate the pushups "Liegestützen", a single part of the whole package, in all the years and it should be somewhere between 800.00 and one million. I think i hated at least 500.00 of them, but like them very much now.
Still I will never achieve perfection, even if it could be, then I would need to work endlessly to hold the form, but I am getting old (almost 40 now) and it is getting so much harder now, especially the parts "nutrition and body weight" "regeneration" and beiing explosive.
You sir, have an advantage here, at least I hope so, because you dont lose your ability and physique, but should even improve over the years. At least until you suffer old peoples diseases like dementia, lets hope we stay sharp between the ears a little bit longer

Is all of this a hobby? I think it once was, but became something more, a part of life.
Not the dominant one, but part of character as you described it.

Do you have the mindset to say "It is enough" at some point? And even be satisfied with it? Not knowing you of course, but guessing: yes you do.
Because what else can you do? The game of our dreams, does it exist? Can it be done? Maybe so, I can assure you, you are coming very close to my taste, in fact you are already there, every addition is just more greatness. But will you be satisfied, saturated, pleased? I think yes.

Please dont think I am sour or critisizing you, I am just one of many faceless profiteers of you peoples work.
If anything I hope to give you motivation and a little bit aof gratitude for everything.

Best wishes.

 

[raystuttgart]

Thanks for the long and detailed answer, ...

No problem. I like writing, since it is also a form of creativity.

Is all of this a hobby? I think it once was, but became something more, a part of life.
Not the dominant one, but part of character as you described it.

That is also a good way to formulate it.
As I said, you become what you practice.

Do you have the mindset to say "It is enough" at some point?

If I do, then I will have adopted the mindset of a consumer and given up the mindset of a creator.
(Or - which is also possible - I find my passion in creating something else.)

The game of our dreams, does it exist? Can it be done?

As I tried to explain, it is not just about the goal (the published mod) anymore, it is also about the journey (the modding itself).

15 years ago, I started modding only for the result of having more fun in a game.
Now I mod also for the sake of modding. Passion, community, challenge.

Some people play soccer to win the game. (success) --> Wanting to pulish a mod, that becomes successful (extrinsic motivation)
Some people play soccer to enjoy playing. (passion) --> Wanting to have fun being creative and implementing stuff (intrinsic motivation)

I would rather not be successful and still enjoy than the other way around.
If both are possible that is optimal of course.

If anything I hope to give you motivation and a little bit of gratitude ...

Thanks. As I said, nice feedback is always appreciated.

-----

P.S.:

Sorry for all this "philosophical" jabber.

It is just that I have learned a lot about myself recently.
(Stuff I wish I would have learned or understood years ago.)

But it also affects the way I treat modding a lot.
(Having fun is currently the main thing I care about.)

 

[Zombie Horde]

A noob member here just reading through stuff after purchasing the ultimate collection for civ4 on steam, god knows how i jumped passed civ4, went from civnet civ 2-3-5-6 anyways i'm here now (10+ years later) so you can all sigh a relief
I love this forum already just from the fact even the modders are active in 2022 for a game made in the previous DECADES!!! that alone is pretty unheard of and i doff my cap to thee all.
I have yet to play civ4col and just started with vanilla civ4 and from what ive seen already with the vanillas and the mods im very excited, a fat kid in a cake shop is me.

 

[Zadera]

I hear you. This has been my all time favorite game and I began modding (if you can call novice level stuff like I do modding). about 2018. Most of what I have done has been add some of my own flavor text to the Religion and Revolution Mod that I am so in love with. I added in some content like, naming my own ships and cities (after my friends kids since he plays coop with me) and adding a couple civs to the game with some of my own flavors. I hope you enjoy this site as much as I do.