Why Civ V is more complex than Civ IV

You start with calling things that contradict your own opinion "fallacious" and obviously wrong, then insult everyone who doesn't share your opinion by claiming that this can only be the result of not having thought enough about the game, and then expect that people actually read on?

I'm actually interested in other people's opinions, even if they don't match my own, but after this start, I decided that it was too unlikely that the rest of it was actually worth reading.

I suggest a bit more respect for opinions differing from your own.

Perhaps my tone was overly combative. For this I apologize. I may edit the first paragraph of my post, as I don't want to alienate those individuals with differing opinions who are interested in reasoned discussion. You seem to be one of these individuals (rare in this forum these days). My aggressive tone was a knee-jerk response to the far larger number of "critics" who generate more heat than light with by complaining without offering any cogent analysis.

Please, take another look at my substantive remarks and post your thoughts.
 
This is perfectly stated.

Civ IV is complicated
Civ V is complex
I don't have a dog in this hunt -- haven't even bought CivV yet -- but I don't think that actually is "perfectly stated," and the discussion here proves it. I think "complex" was a poor word choice, and the confusion crated by using it has taken the discussion astray. What he probably meant was "deep"? Complex by definition means "intricate, having numerous interconnected components."

For example, Go is known as perhaps the "deepest" strategy game ever. But it is not complex; its mechanics are in fact quite simple.
 
Civ 5 is just beginning to evolve into what it should be. There is a very long way to go yet. BTW who knows what the expansion packs will add to the game. And we have not seen the first patch.
 
Please, take another look at the substantive critiques of Civ5 by many many posters elsewhere on this forum and - by all means - post *your* thoughts.

good luck finding the "substantive" critiques.
 
Hey, I was not the one who deployed 'substantive' first. It's an escalatory sort of word, I agree, but let's just leave it at that, for now maybe...
 
Please, take another look at my substantive remarks and post your thoughts.

Okay. One thing that definitely has become rarer in this part of the forum are people who are actually open to criticism and even apologize or take something back. Which means I'd feel like a jerk if I didn't accept that invitation. ;) It'll have to wait until tomorrow though, right now my ability for coherent thought is impaired considerably by severe lack of sleep (i.e. I'm in danger of falling asleep on my keyboard again). I'll get back tomorrow though.

One side note about the critics not offering any cogent analysis: While these undoubtedly do exist, I have to say that I've rarely seen such an enormous effort by so many to people to analyze and explain exactly why they don't like a game. I've witnessed several games releases which divided their fanbase and caused very heated debates (HoMM4 vs. HoMM3, HoMM5 vs. both, Oblivion vs. Morrowind, MoO3 vs. MoO2, etc.), and after reading through several different forums and user reviews, I'm positively astonished as to how detailed, cohesive, and somber a lot of the criticism is. However, I understand that we all here are like sitting in a trench and continually see bullets flying in our direction, so perhaps naturally our attention is more focused on the bullets than on the more rational offers of dispute that also exist. I'd just like to state that, imho, the amount of cogent criticism this time feels much higher than on the other occasions I mentioned.
 
I find it funny that the detractors of Civ 5 are claiming that the OP is closed minded and combative while there are many threads out there along the lines of "Why Civ 5 is an absolute atrocity" and "Civ5 is the Worst" etc.

OP is just defending is views in the face of a loud and boistrous minority opposition. I too think many aspects of Civ5 are more complex as the OP listed. More complicated? Not yet, but just wait until RoM comes out for Civ5 and then we'll see. Just because there is currently the 4 horseman rush exploit doesnt mean thats the only way to play. Rush exploits were at launch of previous civ titles as well...

And one more complex aspect of Civ5 the OP didn't mention (unless I missed it) was the very complex interactions with the City-States. There are no equivalencies to this in Civ4.

Now lets just all get along and agree to disagree. When RoM comes out we can all be friend again:)
 
This is likely going to be trying to shine light in the eyes of those who refuse to see, but...

Entire game concepts are missing - religion, corporations, vassals, colonies - fewer Civs, leaders, traits, limited units, resources mined not connected, policies are static versus flexible civics, pinched diplomacy that does... nothing that can be discerned.

To make the statement that Civ5 is complex is simply to argue into the wind - all evidence is to the contrary.

I don't believe a game is more complex because it's got more "stuff", and your examples are, well, great examples of this. Adding more Civs, more leaders, more leader traits, more units, more more more - it doesn't make the game more complex. Don't even get me started on the so called complexity of Religion and Corporations, as these are 100% simple +/- modifiers.

I believe that Civ V is more complex than Civ IV because you have to make tough choices all the way. One poster pointed out that it is absurd to have to pay for a Wall in 2010 A.D. Well, then you'll have to make the choice in 2010 B.C.: Do I need a Wall in the border city to protect my city from Montezuma? Now, I know I will be paying more than 400 gold in maintenance for it over time, and when I conquer the Aztec Madman the city won't be a bordercity anymore, but....

As for flexibility, yes Civ IV was more flexible. You could make radical changes by turning a slider or revolting. But how does this make the game more complex? If anything, this makes the game less complex? All the choices you've made the last 8 hours of gameplay can be changed entirely in one turn?

I do however agree with those complaining about what seems like rush jobs (glitches/bugs/wrongful information) and the fact the AI sometimes are terrible. But hopefully the AI for Civ V will improve as much as the AI for Civ IV Vanilla did.
 
As for flexibility, yes Civ IV was more flexible. You could make radical changes by turning a slider or revolting. But how does this make the game more complex? If anything, this makes the game less complex? All the choices you've made the last 8 hours of gameplay can be changed entirely in one turn?

This "turning your civilization on a dime" method from IV is definitely a reason it was less complex. V requires much more forethought.
 
I'm sure most of you won't take me seriously as I haven't even played Civ 5, but for those that can please continue as I will not be rude or crude to either side of the debate. I was looking for this exact thread actually, for this exact discussion.

Before I continue with my thoughts I have watched 30-40 hours of livestream from a great caster who never reloads so we all learn from his mistakes. He has played multiplayer and single player up to immortal difficulty. He's not an amazing player, but hes certainly not bad. My background: I have played Civ since Civ I, and have probably logged ~2000hrs since I was 12yrs old, I'm 29 now, on Civ I through IV.

I honestly believe a case can be made for either side, but in my personal opinion I believe that Civ 5 has the potential to be more complex if you want it be, allow me to explain.

Even I know the 4 horseman honor abuse strat and I haven't even played the game. Sure, you can do that and win easily pretty much every single time. But, can't you do the same thing on Civ IV with marathon speed and max civs?

Ok so the AI is just plain stupid, and can be easily countered using choke points and human tactics with 1/3 or less units compared to the AI. But, haven't we all baited Civ IV AIs to attack when we appear weak, only to upgrade our units once they wardec and then faceroll all their cities after killing their invasion force? The AI will always be dumb, but it is glaringly apparent in Civ 5 because 1UPT forces tactics where the AI is simply outmatched. A seriously competent AI would be prohibitively expensive and time between turns would be ridiculous. Also, If anyone can honestly say that militarily conquoring a runaway AI on another continent is easy then I applaud you.

But, I digress, this thread is about complexity, so lets get to it. I think when most people ponder complexity they look at the level of micromanagement, and the amount of attention that must be paid to ______ to keep it in check. Micro everything from diplomacy, to gold, health, happiness, production, science, etc.

1) Diplomacy: I won't argue at all, it's vague at best in Civ 5, but... doesn't that make it more complex? In Civ IV you knew where you stood with everyone at all times and why, simply by hovering over their name. Whereas now, the AI can wardec seemingly out of the blue when you're totally unprepared. Granted you can see it coming most times with a military buildup at your borders. But, what about early on when your borders are small and most likely don't connect multiple cities giving you a clearly defined front line? In Civ IV you could expand your cultural borders around most of your cities pretty early on simply by having one religion spread after adopting it. Also, if you do find diplomacy to be too easy just assign random personalities to the AI to spice it up even more. We're talking complexity here, so I won't talk about how easy it is to have the AI give you half their cities after beating them down for a few waves, which will hopefully be fixed.

2) Science: The tech tree may be a little lackluster and illogically connected at times, but I think micro'ing your science is infinitely more difficult in Civ V simply because there is no spill over and no tech trading. Those two things alone make science much more micro intensive. If you're doing it right, you're constantly calculating the science output for the next research project, timing when a city will grow and it if will add science to the city. Putting specialists in and out of the library as to not waste any production, gold, or city growth time on excess beakers that are ultimately wasted. Which ties in with,

3) Production: is such a scarce commodity in Civ V that also doesn't have any spillover so maximizing hammers without wasting any that could have conversely been gold or science output is also very micro intensive if you're doing it right. Additionally since you can't just spam most buildings in most cities you have to carefully decide what to put where. A specialist economy is even more necessary in Civ V than it was in Civ IV and much much harder. Instead of pumping out tanks 1 per turn out of your ironworks military academy city along with the occasional wonder with pretty much every other city being a hybrid except for your science capital and GP farm, you need to plan in advance pretty much before you settle or capture a new city. The OP already touched on expansion so I won't go into cities any further, suffice to say that reckless spamming is no longer a plausible strategy

4) Victory : is now something that must be planned far far in advance, and in regards to a cultural victory often before the game even begins. In Civ IV you could kind of straddle a few victory types until you decide which one you want to go for. Granted you can definitely switch between a few types in Civ V, but your leeway to do so has been limited, hence more complex.

There are a lot of other things as well but these and the OPs are the main ones that I think make Civ V more complex. Oh I did want to mention one more thing though. The spamming of trading posts as kind of a cure all. The buy your way to victory strat is very viable from what I've seen, but I don't think it's a cure all. Again, I haven't played cuz my computer is awful, but from what I've seen you can advance further into science and faster, construct more buildings and wonders, and have a military strong enough to do the job. Buying something is never as efficient as building it, but it is one solution to the longer training and production times. The specialist economy has been the most effective way to play the game that I have seen thus far.


Thank you for your time
 
This is in response to the numerous polls and
Building maintenance- Civ IV had no building maintenance costs. This made the decision of what buildings to build, and where to build them far simpler, a step backwards in complexity from even Civ I and II. In IV you could spam every building everywhere in your empire, without regards to min/maxing or whether it would be worth it or not. Try that in Civ V, you will bankrupt your empire.

As pointed out in some other thread, this simply isn't true. In Civ4 you had to think whether the building pays itself, or is it better to build wealth, research or units instead. I don't think it was possible to win in higher levels by building every building everywhere.

The building decisions are not very complex in Civ5 since most of the buildings are useless compared to their building and maintenance costs.

Expansion- Prior civ games had no effective check on expansion. Founding an additional city was nearly always advisable, bigger was always better. In Civ V there is a very real cost to reckless expansionism. There are benefits too, and therin lies the essence of complexity. A larger empire will generate more hammers and gold, but it will be difficult to keep happy. Founding a city to gain an additional resource may help with happiness or military power, but detract from your ability to accumulate social policies. There are all kinds of tradeoffs, and the optimal strategy may very depending on your situation and what victory condition you are aiming at.

In Civ4, it was possibly to win space race with 6 cities in Deity. I doubt that it is possible now, and if it is, it's just because of dumbness of the AI. While there is a happiness penalty (which isn't necessary significant at all, there are already "ignore happiness"- strategies), there is virtually no penalty in terms of science and gold. In these terms, bigger is just better and that's it.
 
As pointed out in some other thread, this simply isn't true. In Civ4 you had to think whether the building pays itself, or is it better to build wealth, research or units instead. I don't think it was possible to win in higher levels by building every building everywhere.

Well, I never won on Deity, but I won consistently on Emperor and sometimes on Immortal in Civ IV, and I built "every building everywhere". It was never a question of if I should build it, it was when.

As for "whether the building pays itself" - same logic goes for Civ V. Do I need a Libary/Granary/Barracks in this city, because the city needs it, or should I rather build a Monument/Temple/Colosseum/Unit because my civilization needs it.
 
I fail to see how a game that many of us are beating on Immortal and Deity a few days after release can be more complex than one which took most people many, many games to reach that level.

In Civ 4, it took a long time to learn how to balance all the variables. In the first few games, you often get something wrong and the wheels would fall off your empire while the AI rushed ahead even on King. Then eventually you figure out how to balance it all and then it's like riding a bicycle.

With Civ V you realise after an hour's play how to balance everything and after that, in subsequent games, you don't really have to think about it. Like a bicycle with training wheels it just keeps going without too much effort, you just turn the handle every now and then when you want to nudge it in the right direction. Not even the Immortal AI can stop you. Since the game is so mathematical, the AI can be fixed to optimise it by brute force, so it will get more challenging, but then it will be the excruciating challenge of figuring out how to turn your 84% optimum strategy into a 88% optimum one.
 
There is nothing complex about a turd that wont flush, civ5 is just one big fat turd, sold for 50$, nothing complex about it.
 
This is slightly offtopic but some of those things are flawed. Maybe they didn`t make it so on purpose, it just came out that way.

Building maintenance - can`t destroy buildings after you`ve built them. Build a wall in 2000 BC and you pay for it right up to 2050 AD. Want to switch city specialization? No, the game won`t let you.

Expansion - See happiness

Happiness - This is a failure. Maybe this system is complex, i just don`t see it. It`s as simple as it gets and unbalanced to the core. You would have way too much happiness in a Duel map and way too exhausting unhappiness in a Huge map. They didn`t balance happiness at all. In a Huge map you have the same ammount of luxuries as in a Duel map. However the number of cities and population varies alot, thus making those two map sized too extreme. They did not work on this at all. If they wanted to balance this they should of given a certain number of luxury types per map size. For example 4 different luxuries in a duel map, 25 different luxuries in a Huge map.

1UPT is the one thing they did right in this game. The whole SOD thing in CIV made me quit the game from time-to-time.

Actually this is how it is implemented. The couple of games I've played on duel maps there were only roughly 6-8 different luxury resources (I had clicked abundant resources on). I agree with you that there should be an option to demolish/abandon/convert buildings.

This is likely going to be trying to shine light in the eyes of those who refuse to see, but...

Entire game concepts are missing - religion, corporations, vassals, colonies - fewer Civs, leaders, traits, limited units, resources mined not connected, policies are static versus flexible civics, pinched diplomacy that does... nothing that can be discerned.

To make the statement that Civ5 is complex is simply to argue into the wind - all evidence is to the contrary.

Actually three out of four of those features - corporations, vassals and colonies - didn't come out until with expansions. If you read the backs of your copies of warlords and beyond the sword, you will start to realize how many of those great concepts and content - there were only 18 civs in the vanilla Civ4, MUCH less buildings and wonders(BtS alone had over 60 new buildings and several new wonders) - didn't come out until a couple of years after the vanilla was released.
 
It looks a lot of players plays and win civ5 - a game released 2 weeks ago - at a higher level
they played civ4.

So, the conclusion is...?
 
This is in response to the numerous polls and suggestions that Civ V is "dumbed down" or less complex than Civ IV. I do not mean to suggest that Civ V is perfect in its current state (it needs obvious bug fixes and ai improvements, probably a little building rebalancing also). What I do suggest, is that Civ V is certainly more complex in its basic mechanics than Civ IV. To wit:

Building maintenance- Civ IV had no building maintenance costs. This made the decision of what buildings to build, and where to build them far simpler, a step backwards in complexity from even Civ I and II. In IV you could spam every building everywhere in your empire, without regards to min/maxing or whether it would be worth it or not. Try that in Civ V, you will bankrupt your empire.

Combat- Stack combat was a gross oversimplification. Build some melee or gunpowder units, a bunch of seige, group together and click go-to button next to enemy capital. Not exactly rocket science. Now, in Civ V, one unit per tile is infinitely more complex. So complex, in fact, that the ai has not mastered it (one of the actually legitimate criticisms of Civ V). However, I appreciate the more rewarding and complex new mechanic, and look forward to vastly more exciting and complex multiplayer action, and single player games after ai improvements.

Government- In Civilization 4, your choice of civics had zero long term repercussions. You could easily change Civics after a short period of anarchy, even that easily mitigated by golden ages or religious trait. While admittedly slightly less simple than the likes of Civ 2 (where you could run democracy, then pop into monarchy for a couple turns to declare and fight a war, then pop back into democracy) even Civ IV’s civics system is very simplistic. By contrast, in Civ V, you have to consider several things when adopting a social policy- the short term versus long term benefits not only of the current policy choice, but of all other policies farther down the tree. You really have to plan ahead with a grand strategy, making social policies in Civ V much more complex for the player than its predecessors.

Expansion- Prior civ games had no effective check on expansion. Founding an additional city was nearly always advisable, bigger was always better. In Civ V there is a very real cost to reckless expansionism. There are benefits too, and therin lies the essence of complexity. A larger empire will generate more hammers and gold, but it will be difficult to keep happy. Founding a city to gain an additional resource may help with happiness or military power, but detract from your ability to accumulate social policies. There are all kinds of tradeoffs, and the optimal strategy may very depending on your situation and what victory condition you are aiming at.

Happiness- Civ IV had the easiest and most simplistic happiness system in the series. Not only did your cities only have localized happiness, but they didn't even experience revolt or civil disorder, merely an unproductive citizen. You could effectively ignore all of those angry faces in Civ 4, until you got around to dealing with them. With Civ V global happiness, you ignore happiness at your peril. Reduced empire wide growth, lack of golden age accumulation, loss of rationalism science bonus, penalty to combat, etc. (I am aware of the existence "ignore happiness" strats, but these are mainly for specialized late game situations. Further, I believe they are something akin to an exploit which will be fixed by increasing the "very unhappy" penalty in future patches).

1) perhaps , but you don't have the choice to build everything in Civ V , you're forced to build a limited amount of buildings in cities. And in Civ IV prioritizing buildings would optimize your performance. So it went from an optimization CHOICE to being FORCED to prioritize . taking the choice away takes away complexity because the human factor is left out . In the past it was mainly about the "Cost of Opportunity" now to make people more aware of the true cost it is a "direct cost"

2) i agree here , the combat is more "complex"

3) Yes and no , now you're simply stuck with what you have all the time. That's not complex that's just a "sucks to be you" policy if you took the wrong policy . I agree the civics were too dynamic but again , the social policies are too static , taking away adaption is taking away depth .

4) More is better? are you serious? i often had to cut back on expansion due to maintenance . And in the past location mattered when expanding . Now it doesn't No longer will you have economy-crippling cities because they're too far from your capital just set it anywhere you want. Complexity went DOWN with this one. Its not because the game tells me i can only have 5 cities or otherwise fall into unhappiness depth is added .

5) Ignoring all the angry faces would reduce your empire's effectiveness , you would lose science/gold/production as well . It was a matter of optimization. And in the right difficulty level it could affect the outcome of the game . Now i do like the implementation of golden ages through happiness but you don't need global happiness for that. And remember when choosing where you built the happiness increasing improvement actually mattered?
 
This "turning your civilization on a dime" method from IV is definitely a reason it was less complex. V requires much more forethought.
Seriously, what are they paying you? Every experienced Civ-player can beat Deity rather easily on Civ5, so please, stop with the propaganda.

I'm sure many players love Civ5 and I agree there are some really positive aspects of the game, but the AI sucks and many of the strategic aspects of the game were cut.

@Moderators: Is there a way to ignore/hide posts from certain people?

Moderator Action: Infraction for trolling - Please do not tell other forum members to stop posting or accuse them of being paid for their opinion. It does not make for civil discussion.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Moderator Action: A notice:

Using labels to mock other users and/or their arguments will no longer be tolerated on this forum.

An example (but not exhaustive) list includes:
...
Accusing someone for working for Steam/2KGames/Stardock etc. who is not 2kGreg & 2kElizabeth

We will be warning/infracting people we see using these terms from this point on
 
It looks a lot of players plays and win civ5 - a game released 2 weeks ago - at a higher level
they played civ4.

So, the conclusion is...?

...That the computer put up a better fight in CIV4?

You cannot draw a conclusion on the complexity of the game from that. I played some platformers 20 years ago that required pixel perfect timing of jumps from one platform to another. It was hard, but it was not complex.
 
Top Bottom