Why have melee been allowed to be so bad for so long?

I think ranged could be better balanced if one of two changes was made:

Tone down the damage done on defense. If a melee unit makes it in range of a ranged unit, the ranged unit should do at most 50% damage on defense. Once the melee unit has closed in it has the advantage.

Give cavalry-based units an inherent +% damage modifier against range-based units. It doesn't have to be a lot, but enough to make them more of a threat. I believe flanking and formation breaking is what these units are for to begin with. Just like most have their -33% vs cities, they could get +33% vs. range just as well.

This would make ranged units more fragile and less beneficial in up close combat, which would require players to put more effort into protecting them. In addition, it also makes melee units a more viable choice in taking down enemy ranged units.

Agreed on the general theme, though I would point out that if you made ranged units crumple in melee, mounted units would already have a big advantage over them since they'd be able to get into their range much easier.
 
The incredible uselessness of units like the Gatling gun shows how much the 2 tile attack range is a big part of the problem.

Gatling guns are useless?? This is a wind-up, right? Gatling guns are one of the best units in the game, especially given their position in the tech tree.

It baffles me that people are so quick to conclude that if their pet strategy doesn't make much use of unit X, that automatically means there's a problem with unit X, even if other people happily make perfectly good use of them as they are.
 
Gatling guns are useless?? This is a wind-up, right? Gatling guns are one of the best units in the game, especially given their position in the tech tree.

It baffles me that people are so quick to conclude that if their pet strategy doesn't make much use of unit X, that automatically means there's a problem with unit X, even if other people happily make perfectly good use of them as they are.

how do you use gatling guns?

I like having units with 2 and three range but I can't find a use for one ranged melee outside of a city attack in my formations.
 
how do you use gatling guns?

I like having units with 2 and three range but I can't find a use for one ranged melee outside of a city attack in my formations.

I certainly wouldn't use them to attack well-established cities, which can usually do a lot of damage by the time you get Gats rolling. But their 36 strength absolutely cuts apart everything before Rifles and Cav, and they can soak up quite a bit of punishment. The AI likes Industrialization, so you can often steal it, while they often delay teching to Rifles (and to a lesser extent Cav), so if you time it right you can catch the AI with its pants down and wipe out a vast carpet of doom reasonably painlessly.

(Of course, they can stand toe-to-toe against Rifles and Cav perfectly well, but the crushing advantage comes against earlier units: the jump from Musket strength to Industrial era strength is a big leap.)
 
Mostly agree with OP, I may add:

Melee units are just meat shields for ZOC. To take cities you have also calvary. Actually I prefer calvary, because unless damaged, city will fire the weakest units at range: ranged. It has penalty vs cities, but that is no issue, you are only delivering the final blow, you can take a 100 def city with a horseman al long as the city is at 1 HP.

Honor on BNW is worse than ever. A branch that improve melee, that lose some happiness boosts, in a new game where early conquest is toned down, is not more an option as starting branch.

In Vanilla melee were quite strong and Honor was decent, in G&K melee are meat shields honor was useable but suboptimal in nearly any scenario, and again in BTW we have the same stupid melee, and honor is worse than ever.

Melee should be the backbone of any army, not just specialized defenders. Melee should be more threatening and aggressive units: They mostly wont attack because they would be likely sniped by ranged/city ,and lose fortified status. They should have more viable promotion paths other than full cover, then medic. They should actively help capturing a city, not just for final blow deliver.
 
Give ranged a promotion that's -100% defense vs melee (including mounted melee). Problem solved.
 
This has probably already been said, but I'm going to reiterate.

Just like the board game, the triangle should be ARCHER BEATS INFANTRY BEATS MOUNTED BEATS ARCHER. Siege? They should be equal in trades with Archers, and weak against defending Melee and Mounted.

The Archer class is simply too strong. There's this balance of power between Mounted vs. Melee thats very interesting, but Archers come in and throw everything off.

The resolution is simple:
1. Give most Mounted class units a 25%+ bonus to attacking Archer class units, or more.
2. Give the Iron-based Melee class units a moderate buff in combat strength.


Defending with Archer class units is meant to be strong. If you want to crack a player defending with them, it should be hard. Use the mounted units to take them out since he's going to have only one Archer safe in the city of question.

However, the primary strategy in both MP and single player for sieging, bringing a huge army of Archers, a couple Mounted or Melee, splashed with optional Siege, is not intended and should be punishable.
 
I feel I should clarify which melee units I think need a lot of help, and which are fine.

The two units that need the most help are swordsmen and longswordsmen. Spearman and pikeman are fine where they are. Let's delve into the reasons for this.

1. Swordsman and Longswordsman require iron, Spearman and Pikemen do not.
2. Spearman and Pikemen require very little tech investment, while Swordsmen and Longswordsmen require ironworking and steel, respectively. Civil Service is a solid tech in its own right since it improves your freshwater farms. Perhaps even more importantly, you'll unlock CS anyway on the road to Education, one of the most important techs in the game. Unlocking Swordsman and Longswordsmen have a big opportunity cost as far as developing the infrastructure of your empire and accelerating your tech progression; Unlocking Spearman has little opportunity cost, and unlocking Pikemen has almost none.
3. Spearman and Pikemen are able to fill the same role that Swordsmen and Longswordsmen do. They both can fortify in a hill/forest next to a city, exerting a ZoC and waiting for the city to drop to almost 0 health so they can cap it. The extra combat strength of SM and LSM doesn't really come into play here. All 4 melee units generally have to fortify next to the city because if they choose to attack it, you risk having them sniped and then having no melee units left. If you build a lot of melee to counteract the risk of losing all your melee, the city siege either takes longer (if you don't attack with your melee) or becomes much costlier (since melee units lose hp each time they attack, while ranged do not).
4. Spearmen and Pikemen have the added utility of being able to devastate mounted units. Their effective combat strength against these units is 16.5 and 24, respectively.
5. Spearmen require 56 hammers to SM's 75. Pikemen require 90 hammers to LSM's 120.

Literally the only thing that the iron-requiring units have over their cheaper, conveniently-unlocked, horse-killing, role-stealing cousins is a few measly combat points.

Furthermore, Musketmen are in an okay spot. Not good, because they're melee, but not horrible. Why?

1. They require no strategic resources.
2. The 2-range equivalent to Musketmen are Cannons, which can only be unlocked after teching to Musketmen in the first place. Comparatively, CBs and XBs can be teched to with more economical tech paths than SM and LSM, respectively. In fact, CBs are 1-tier lower than SMs, while XBs's tech requires 3 less than LSM's (XB requires engineering, LSM requires engineering + Bronzeworking, Ironworking, Metal Casting). Further, and more obviously, cannon's require a set-up while CB and XB do not, meaning Cannons can not kite.
3. They are not outshined by the anti-cavalry of the era, because Lancer's simply can not fortify under a city to exert ZoC + wait for cap.

That said, it's still not advisable to mass musketmen as a strategy (much to the disappointment of America/France) simply because MM, while good for fortifying under a city and creating pressure around it, are not actually good for attacking the city itself, and you'll want as many units as possible attacking the city. Hence, you usually see mass cannons, or even XB + cannon, at this stage in the game to take cities.

After all's said, I think it's clear that SM and LSM at least need a buff, if not MM as well. In retrospect, my suggestion to change the mechanics of melee combat falls flat since you don't want to buff Spearmen/Pikemen, as they admirably fill the role of "defensive/utilitarian melee unit." Perhaps a simple combat boost to SM and LSM really is all that's needed. Alternately, perhaps SM and later units in that upgrade path (LSM, MM, Riflemen, etc) should start with a promotion that reads "+25% damage when attacking other units and cities." My reasoning for this is that Spearmen and Pikemen are largely defensive/utility units, so SM/LSM should be offensive units. Note this promotion wouldn't be available to warriors so as to prevent total cheese with jaguars/maoris/etc, but would indirectly be available to those units by premaking them and later upgrading them.:

I don't think any of the melee units need a buff. This is because using swordsman and LSM are more helpful to your long term goals, and they're pretty strong on their own. The swordsman has just 3 combat points higher than the spearman, but those three points allow it to survive 4 instead of 3 composite bowman hits, and also allow it to oneshot an archer in flat terrain. That's basically wiping out a ranged unit per turn. The LSM is a whole 25% stronger than the pikeman in terms of combat strength. Also, the SM upgrades from warriors for a relatively cheap price - which means you get a SM for only 80 gold and the beginning of the game (provided your initial warrior doesn't die) and you can pump out two more warriors before upgrading them.

But that's not the main reason I favor the SM and LSM. You see, later on in the tech tree, these units upgrade to far more useful things than their speared counterparts. After pikeman, there is the lancer which comes at metallurgy - that's a whole 8 techs or so further in the tech tree. Lancers are decent, but their measly 33% bonus against mounted usually doesn't make a difference and their penalty against cities defeats their purpose. Then you don't get another upgrade for 3 eras (until Atomic)! And when you do it upgrades into the completely useless anti-tank gun; sporting a combat strength of only 50 (which is really low for the atomic era), this gun's special ability is nullified because, in my experience, the AI never builds armor units. The helicopter gunship is no better (with CS of 60), and gets completely rolled by any units of its time (rocket artillery, mech inf, etc.).

Now, let's take a look at upgrade paths for the LSM. The next upgrade for this unit is 1 tech later, which means that you barely have to use the LSM at all (if you hate it so much). After muskets you get riflemen, which are at the beginning of the industrial era but not too far away, as you should have a solid scientific infrastructure set up - and the great scientists granted by the Porcelain Tower and Tower of Pisa (whose techs are, by the way, on the path to rifling, making this all the more convenient). By this time the AI on prince should have just got muskets if they're lucky; stuck on pikemen in they're not. Should you choose to go to war, you would probably steamroll over them. That's not all, though; after that you just need to research 4 techs before using the 3 free techs (2 by finishing rationalism, 1 by Oxford) to immediately finish plastics - to get infantry. Think about that. With this strategy, you skip Great War Infantry and more than double your melee units' strength within most likely 20 turns!:eek: By now, enemy city strength would be around 50 - able to, with a ranged unit, oneshot your lancers if you chose the path of pikemen, but only dealing 10-20 damage per turn vs. infantry (their combat strength is a whopping 70, about 3 times that of lancers). It's around this time that, after getting artillery, I begin to steamroll every single other civ on the planet. Now that you know which paths building the swordsman/LSM or the spearman/pikeman lead, which one do you choose? Which one is better not for your short term goals but for your long term ones?
 
They probably should be buffed against ranged at least. I agree with the op. Pikes are basically almost as good, can still take cities, and cost less. I don't distinguish in my mind much of a difference in roles between spears and swords. Especially when you can only have 1 per hex, the opportunity to use a unit vs. what it is designed to counter usually isn't there.
 
One thing that angers me is the bad place on the tech tree of swords.

Swords only unlock Iron (which needs to be improved to pop units) and the Heroic Epic; if they unlocked say the Armory and swords had an advantage over Pikes (say more ranged resistance) it would be different.

Civil service on the other hand leads to Education/Chivalry, both fundamental, AND unlocks one of the best wonders, AND pikes cost no resources.

The only time I ever went with IW before CS was when I played Rome because Legions are actually good.
 
This has probably already been said, but I'm going to reiterate.

Just like the board game, the triangle should be ARCHER BEATS INFANTRY BEATS MOUNTED BEATS ARCHER. Siege? They should be equal in trades with Archers, and weak against defending Melee and Mounted.

The Archer class is simply too strong. There's this balance of power between Mounted vs. Melee thats very interesting, but Archers come in and throw everything off.

The resolution is simple:
1. Give most Mounted class units a 25%+ bonus to attacking Archer class units, or more.
2. Give the Iron-based Melee class units a moderate buff in combat strength.


Defending with Archer class units is meant to be strong. If you want to crack a player defending with them, it should be hard. Use the mounted units to take them out since he's going to have only one Archer safe in the city of question.

However, the primary strategy in both MP and single player for sieging, bringing a huge army of Archers, a couple Mounted or Melee, splashed with optional Siege, is not intended and should be punishable.

I liked this solution I heard here or perhaps in one of the other threads:

1. Decrease ranged unit Melee Combat Strength
2. Increase Swordsman and Longswordsman Melee Combat Strength

If ranged units had lower combat strength they'd be much more vulnerable to mounted units by default.
 
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